Driven to Suicide?

Very beautiful quote...it brought me to tears...after so long, it still hurts to think back on this...but there are still other people, like him, that need our help.

All they seek is understanding, and compassion...

I've been trying since then to repay my debt to him...

hey Anathema---

I experienced something very similar, and I wanted to tell you this, for what it's worth:

The family of the suicide will invariably blame someone who was close. In my case, my girlfriends parents, most of her family and most of her friends, some of whom I thought were my friends also, all blamed me for her death. They cannot accept that she was troubled, therefore, it must have been something I did which drove her to it.

Here's the kicker. The police detective who questioned me, while her body was still lying in my house 30 feet away, told me this would happen, warned me to avoid the family for a while.

The psychologist I went to later said it happens in almost every case.

It's common. Try not to take it personal.

Anathema6205- Powerful story indeed. I agree with believer, however I admire your ability to learn from it, use it to really understand what he must have suffered, how could you have otherwise truly known "then". You couldn't. This is why I had no one to turn too, if it was that incomprehensible to me, then it was to others as well, there were no words. I turned inward and to God to seek me out of this world that was just too big and cold and ugly for me. I work with people too, all the time, suicide attempts. I say this one thing to myself each time I see them, God had different plans for them. I have come to believe, while for the longest time I felt a failure for not succeeding, and I felt God had turned his back...no matter how hard I prayed and I tried to "go" back home....he didn't want me "yet". I have never blamed God because he gave man free will and therefore could not control what happened to me, but I believe he can take back free will in an instant. I understand better today when I see the ones that don't make it, God did spare them something far worse, and allowed them home. I do not judge them, as some so easily do....because it is that close to my heart, and I understand the unspoken pain. I have come to realize, better things came to be for me in my life, but I believe that the description of what you described for your friend was just a mere moment for him knowing it was going to be worse. God spared him and he knew it. You could not have stopped it, but you can be the one now that can better help those that you do. I have much respect for what you have been through and I'm happy you have found a way to live with this in a positive way. God bless. Nothing in this life happens by accident, that from the heart is meant to be. (And no, I'm not religious, I just believe in something greater and better then man or myself). We are just not that powerful, and I'm grateful for knowing that.

Severine Duval - There are some very evil people that walk this life and can take an innocent child and ruin their existence from day one. Are they unstable, NO, do they have serious issues, NO. The perpetrator does. Manipulators come in many forms, as does evil. Selfishness can kill a completely loving, innocent person, sound of mind by the mere motive of power over them from the sick individual who caused the person such pain and damage, they felt they had no other option. So, I disagree with your reasoning to some extent. Yes there are those also with mental problems, but that is not the majority by far. Suicide is not always the selfish act some would like to believe, but the selfishness of the evil person or peoples that push this human being to the brink. Like a hostage. If a hostage has a chance to escape, they will intuitely take it no matter the cost, as from that standpoint, there is nothing more to lose, most especially when they know what's coming, immenent death anyway. Good analogy WERDOOMED, that was a great example.

They don't arrest those that attempt suicide if that's what you mean.

No not's not what I meant but I'll come back and explain it a bit later.

In the interim consider what would have happened to Lori Drew is she had been a man communicating with a teenage girl via the internet. He/she could and oftentimes would have been charged with a number of crimes if he "only" wanted to have sex with her. Yet Drew, by her actions caused the death of someone's child and there is a whole faction of the population who is okay with that.

They are more sick than a murderer - they want to torture their victims.

They do so with malice and/or reckless disregard for how their criminal behavior affects their victim even if their torture leads to the death of the victim.

Lot of stalkers and infamous serial killers torture their victims before killing them. They are not mutually exclusive goals.

One is active the other passive.

It's not really a whole source of the population being okay with that that is causing this to be difficult to punish, it's because it's difficult to prove legally.

Just about all this evidence could be seen as hearsay, which would make it difficult to prove that it was a crime without further corroborating evidence, such as, for example, a victim having a history of depression or something that could prove they were more prone to the sway of the words of others.

That, or if they could prove intent.

Otherwise, a defense lawyer could just argue that they did bully the victim, yes, but they didn't mean for the victim to suicide.

I understand what you're saying but the reason is not because they can't prove it or that it's difficult to punish.

They can and have done both. What they don't want is for anyone except a few choice individuals to have any legal recourse.

Think of it along the lines of why celebrities are able to get people put in jail for stalking them but a lot of regular people can't.

This is the mentality of the people I was speaking of including the a$$holes working in law enforcement:

"Two CHP employees [California Highway Patrol], Aaron Reich and Thomas O'Donnell, admitted to releasing the photos in violation of CHP policy. O'Donnell later stated in interviews that he only sent the photos to his own e-mail account for viewing at a later time, while Reich stated that he had forwarded the pictures to four other people.^[4]

[Nikki] Catsouras' parents soon discovered the photographs posted online. The pictures had gained much attention, including in the form of a fake MySpace tribute website that actually contained links to the photographs.^[4]

Griefers also anonymously e-mailed copies of the photos to the Catsouras family with misleading subject headers, in one case captioning the photo sent to the father with the words "Woohoo Daddy! Hey daddy, I'm still alive."^[1] This led to the Catsouras family withdrawing from Internet use and, concerned that their youngest daughter might have been taunted with the photographs, began homeschooling her.^[4]"

Their daughter died in a horrific car crash. A law enforcement agency as required by law took photos of the crash scene and two employees of that agency, purported "officers", leaked the photos to the public.

That wasn't enough to satisfy the blood lust of some people. They had to see to it that the members of this family were additionally devastated over and over and over again by sending anonymous emails to the family disguised as something innocent and when the links are clicked, up pop the photos of their dead daughter's nearly dismembered body.

They are the same type of people, they are the same people.

Mariyam, I hope you never get depressed or that you never lose a child or grandchild to suicide.

You have no @!$%#ing idea what you are talking about.

If I have added to your distress by my comments then for that I apologize because that was not my intention.

The seeder asks the question whether one can be driven to suicide. I was referring to the fact that Lori Drew, an female adult posing as a teen aged boy, intentionally befriended a teenage girl (Megan Myers), for the sole intent of hurting her. I believe the legal term is "intentional infliction of emotional distress". After "breaking up" with her, he encourage her to kill herself stating I believe that the world would be better off without her. So she did.

I was comparing what Drew did to the internet stings that are setup by law enforcement. They have officers posing as under aged kids to target guys who are looking for sex with minors.

The difference though is that even though they are able to charge these guys with a crime, there was no child ever involved to be exploited and/or hurt. The "children" that these guys are chatting with are actually adult undercover officers. Yet they're still able to prosecute them not on what they did but on what they wanted to do or tried to do, yet they can't prosecute Drew on what she actually did do, which is as an adult cause the death of this teenage girl?

There is a very thin line in my opinion between the idiots running around who use pictures to get their point across and the people who actually push individuals to the breaking point where they view ending their own life as the only way to get the pain to stop.

Clinical depression can be treated. Depression caused by oppression, dispair and hopelessness because of the lawlessness of others can only be treated with justice. And there is so much truth to the adage justice delay is justice denied.

Nine kids charged with bullying in teen's suicide

Mariyam - It is said that all human behavior is motivated by one of only two things. The expectation of reward or the avoidance of pain

Very perceptive of you! I wasn't sure which way you were going with your opening line of suicide being a crime, but "you got it, you get it". I appreciate the fact that you have considered the thinking behind how bully's succeed...this is the method. Now if we can deal with the individual person that can inflict just as much pain and hold them accountable, we will be starting somewhere, and yet this still goes unaddressed to this day. It's no wonder they don't, can't or won't deal with the many, when they won't deal with the one. (and thank you) Hek

Hi Hekofawoman, thank you for your kind words. The reason I have insight into this phenonemon is because a group of unknown individuals utilizing a myriad of methods to maintain unwanted contact with me, including email, text messages, land line & cell phone calls, Instant Messenging, knocking on my door on one pretext or another, leaving notes on & inside my car, etc.

I've tried everything I could think of to bring this to the attention of the authorities but to no avail, so I've had to be my own detective and at time my own attorney which is why I know a little about how this all works.

You said this perfectly "It's no wonder they don't, can't or won't deal with the many, when they won't deal with the one."

But since those who have committed suicide are no longer with us and can't speak for themselves, only those who cared for them personally or for victims in general can.

Those are the people you are being insensitive to, not the dead.

Some might say it's insensitive talk to about suicide as "committing it" like the person that killed themselves was guilty of a crime.

Just saying that almost everything could possibly be construed as insensitive.

weRdoomed

Those are the people you are being insensitive to, not the dead.

All I can say to that is -- 1) I have lost someone to suicide and am not offended thus everyone will have a different reaction and 2) You can't please everyone so you have to please yourself.

However, thank you for offering your opinion.

The person you lost killed themself by hanging?

And what about the people you mentioned who threw themselves against the electric fences in the concentration camps. That's neither a cold or lonely way to go and I'm not being facetious.

The picture is disturbing, but so is the subject.

When I saw it, I flinched, but it's something that happens, whether we like it or not.

And I'm the last one to support censoring anything, especially for such a valid subject.

Bully never meant playful for me. I have had my share when I was a kid and they were gruesome. Really gruesome; criminal gruesome.

We are making progress but still have a ways to go.

US, you always have the right words to say. As I was reading what you wrote you said this:

as they wonder why when the person who had committed "suicide" seems to have been "doing better"

This is what I believe happens. The person in, once in suicide mode has now made a choice, and it's usually the only choice they have, since obviously nothing else has worked to bring relief to on-going pain and suffering in any form. I truly believe for a person to get to the point of suicide, attempting it or succeeding, one must be at the last stage of hope....so yes, there comes with this choice a sense of peace. This has been my experience.....when I made the choice, the only one feasible to me at the time, I was relieved, I felt calm and in fact for the first time ever, I actually felt like I could legitimately smile and everything would be alright and I breathed for the first time. Sad yes, but very true. My fear was gone and was now filled with an ultimate desire to have some peace in my life...that is a very reassuring feeling, despite the consequence of not living when one wasn't able to anyhow. Just because a person breathes, does not mean they are alive. There are many dead men/women/children walking...faking life and just existing. By the time I got to this point, believe me, I had tried every other means of escape...but God did not allow me go leave. Eventually, he freed me and I was then able to walk away....some don't get that chance and some are taken home....

I hope with all my heart that you overcome your pain soon.

Just know that there are others that know what you feel- that you're not alone.

I can relate to the horrible thoughts with knives as well.

What one person can handle just fine, another might find overwhelming

Exactly. Nobody knows what they're enduring until they know their past, or walked in their shoes. A person's personality plays a major role in how they cope with certain issues as well.

If you ever need someone to talk to, feel free to drop an email.

We may not know each other personally, but we do have one thing in common.

Rainkiss - I am here for you - E-MAIL me anytime, really, please never hesitate. With love, friendship and as one human to another who cares, I am here - Trish (Hek) I recieved more love and understanding from complete strangers then I have ever know from people I knew. I UNDERSTAND AND YOU ARE NOT ALONE.

Thanks, all, it means a lot. The hardest part is feeling alone.

You may feel like it, Rain, but you're not.

For what it's worth :-)

Rain - Just remember as believer said, you may "FEEL", but you really aren't alone.....if that were true, we wouldn't be talking now would we? I truly hope you take me up on my offer, if for nothing but just some conversation, about anything.

jbdaad - this may be true to some degree, but I came from an affluent family. This, for me was not a decision based on income, this was a decision based on pain. In fact, because of the social standing of my family during this time, it was even more covered up..."why who would of of thunk it, no not them". A good disguise can hide many things well. People, society, tend to label those that have, to be better versus those that may not appear to have as much, less, or expect certain things....so not true. I would have rather been given to a foster family with nothing but love from them to offer any day. I am still not so sure I believe those statistics because the people who come from the so called better backgrounds, one would "think" should be better, or know better, don't ever allow it to be known or reported. It remains covered up. So for me it's easy to see why they can come up with these numbers because people of a lower economic background tend to end up in a system that recognizes this much more. This so called system doesn't look at families that don't need their assistance, or show any signs for help. I say this not to be argumentative, but from experience. Just like rape, there were and probably still are far more unreported rapes then reported ones, although the trend is getting better at reporting this. Society has for so long given a negative stigma to these types of crimes and labels that are hard to swallow for many. I mean, who really wants to know your best friend, your pastor, your wonderful family friend, that successful father, the beautiful mother, has a precious child that is being abused to the point of eventual suicide, they don't, ....and some will just never know until it's too late.

Like I always say...you truly are a hek of a wonderful woman.

Society has for so long given a negative stigma to these types of crimes and labels that are hard to swallow for many. I mean, who really wants to know your best friend, your pastor, your wonderful family friend, that successful father, the beautiful mother, has a precious child that is being abused to the point of eventual suicide, they don't

Kinda adds insult to injury huh.

Just woke up and getting going...been busy with the Gulf of Mexico spill.

Peace girl...:)

The Physician Effect
"In other words, if you have a drug that can produce a 1 percent decrease in all cause mortality that is a blockbuster agent."

The Price just went up....! Would that be covered under Medicare Part D..??? Sorry - Smile :-)

Life expectations and satisfaction are at the final level self-determined things.

Happiness is not in fact dependant on socioeconomic status, no matter what the media and society seem to be telling us. I believe a person can be just as unhappy while being wealthy as she/he can be if more moderately affluent.

The very basis of happiness and desire to live can be strongly influenced by - say - ones ability to provide service to society, family, etc. If a person no longer believes that they have value in society, and define themselves in any large part by what they would contribute if they could, but for some reason cannot, then possibly they might decide to cease to exist due to becoming a deficit rather than an asset to society.

Wealth is no buffer against the pressures of living. In fact, as those who have been in or around wealth know, it can bring a whole host of misery. Try, for example, "friends" who are really there for a handout. If a wealthy person is surrounded by leaches, who value them only as a source of economic output, I can completely understand why they might decide to end their lives, as at that point they have no more worth as a human being (in their own eyes) as a mere wrench in the garage, there to be used when wanted, otherwise forgotten and of no significant value.

The sense of loss of economic security may be a prompt to high stress for some, but over all, I think there are more basic features of self-worth, the personal ability to absorb either physical/psychological punishment, values and expectations, etc., to be taken into account.

Here I now can add that if someone has been/or is knowingly using another person in any form of abusive way, beating them up either physically, emotionally, or psychologically, or any of the evil, sadistic, means by which sociopaths - etc. - get their supply, I feel there is a special place in hell for you. Abuse which contributes to self-termination is something that cannot, and will never be, washed from the record of those who initiated, prompted, or just plain "drove" someone to suicide. The true sociopath or psychopath won't "get this" at all, while the narcissistic and manipulative will somehow rationalize it......but the rest of us, and God in Heaven, will not forget.

Self-termination - suicide - is a significant personal decision. When a person with any real understanding of how the human body works decides to do this, it is not going to fail. The ways and means of obtaining final relief are all around us, and if a person is decided and resolute, it will happen.

There is perhaps some information available as I believe there is now medically assisted suicide available in some areas of the USA. For these people, questions can be asked, and some answers gotten. In most cases - of course - there is no way for anyone who has committed suicide to give a report "from the other side" of how it went, and if things are any better. However, having attended a few funerals, I can say that those in the caskets did not appear too concerned, and it was the living that seemed to be having the problems.

Some bullies won't turn around. They just won't. No matter what is done, they have their own issues and decide to take it out on others. They have to learn that some people are not going to take their crap and will fight back. Compared to the crap that I went through with my personal life, I don't think these bullies can even compare their lives with mine. And I don't need their crap on top of what I already have piled on my plate. With the issues that I have, I could have been a bully, easily. But that's not who I am and yet.. . .

Here's the messed up part: after the fight, some girls were smart enough to stay away from me. Others. . .not so much. So rumors went around and I was treated more of an outsider. Which is ironic when you think about it; the two types of 'bullies': the one that causes trouble all the time and the one that just has a presence of being dangerous. You never see them in fights, but you know this is someone who can fight, kill, and is feared because of rumors. The stereotyped loner, the quiet person, morbid, who seems to watch from the sidelines to see what is going on rather than participate because they themselves don't want to face another moment of rejection from possible friends or fear from people, up close.

You want to empower some of the victims? I say get rid of this zero tolerance bs in schools. Where if someone defends themselves from a bully, they get the same punishment as the bully. All that does is lower their self esteem because their only other options is to get the crap beaten out of them or to run for the rest of their lives. The bully does not care about the punishment that the school gives them. The victim usually does.

BRAVO for your post Checkmate, BRAVO.

Checkmate

You want to empower some of the victims? I say get rid of this zero tolerance bs in schools. Where if someone defends themselves from a bully, they get the same punishment as the bully. All that does is lower their self esteem because their only other options is to get the crap beaten out of them or to run for the rest of their lives. The bully does not care about the punishment that the school gives them. The victim usually does.

So the child who gets assaulted gets punished even if all they were doing is trying to protect themself to the best of their ability after being attacked? If the adminstrators or too lazy or too inept to be able to figure out who institigated the confrontation and committed the assault then they seriously should be replaced.

Mariyam, that happens in just about most schools. If you even push the bully away in order to escape, you can get the same punishment as the bully for 'instigating' the bully in the first place. They tell the students to talk to a teacher about the bullying. Only one problem: if the teacher does confront the bully, that bully will wait until after school to attack the kid. AND, thanks to our screwed up society, the school system can give you and the bully punishment for fighting. . .even if it happened after school and/or not on school property! I remember bully victims who got into a fight after school, went to school the next day to tell them what happened and they got suspended along with the bully!

This is the thought process going through the administration's head: We're tired of the bullying and the bs. So, anyone involved is going to get the same punishment in order to get the point across. There is no fighting allowed, period. Which also includes defending yourself, since you are fighting back. That is zero tolerance; the school doesn't have to take the 'he did this first; no, he did' crap and places blame on everyone involved.

And we wonder why kids commit suicide, become depressed, do drugs, bring weapons to school, or murder someone, etc.

If the adminstrators or too lazy or too inept to be able to figure out who institigated the confrontation and committed the assault then they seriously should be replaced.

Good luck with that. They'll just put the blame game on the parents, say it isn't a teacher's job, etc. I've heard it. It happened to my brother. There was a food fight started at his table. He walked away, not wanting to get involved and get in trouble. He still got in trouble just for the fact that it happened at his table. The principal screamed that they had it on tape. My parents demanded to see the tape. The principal refused. That, right there, is a bad move for the principal. We knew the main reason why she didn't show the tape: because the camera was never turned on. More than half of the new cameras at the new school weren't working, you know, the cameras that were put there for safety issues. BRAND NEW SCHOOL; cameras were never turned on. You can't say you have evidence and you refuse to show it to others; that crap doesn't hold up in court. My parents pushed for it for over a year because my brother had witnesses that said my brother and some girl wasn't involved; denied by the board of education. The teacher witnesses who 'saw' my brother participate in the food fight changed their story 4 times. Meanwhile, my brother's grades dropped, he couldn't go to any field trips, and teachers started to say he was a bad kid.

The teachers here protect their own and could care less about their students. They can't even tell the truth and then have the nerve to say that the kids are liars?

Yeah, teachers get scapegoated all the time and frequently get the @!$%# end of the stick.

There's some schools that are starting cases of community involvement, but these are the schools that aren't necessarily at risk (ie, small suburban schools in well off districts)

I find this absolutely amazing. My father came to my school when I was in the 4th grade (ish) to have a talk with my teacher because she gave me a 'C' in Science. The thing is, she gave everyone in the class a 'C' and told us it was because she never got around to teaching the subject. Sounded reasonable to me, but it was unacceptable to my Dad because it brought my GPA down through no fault of my own.

I can only imagine what would have happened if someone had physically assaulted me and the school attempted to punish me as well.

Mariyam, your teacher sounds like a lazy sack of @!$%#, if you'll pardon my language.

I've learned in my teacher prep course of studies that show that when teachers neglect teaching a subject, the student can be stuck at the level in the subject for up to 2 years.

The thing is, she gave everyone in the class a 'C' and told us it was because she never got around to teaching the subject.

Proof that teachers have a quota to fill (in this case, they have to teach and test certain areas in a subject). If they don't get to it, they get in trouble for it.

That's pityful.

Good points are being brought up that should hold the abuser, any abuser and all abuse accountable for what they do. If you bring a child up in a home, full of love, praise, support and encouragement, protect them and teach them values....you usually will come up with a pretty well balanced, successful individual who can contribute back into society that of which we all benefit. That's the ideal. Take that same child and put them in a home, where love is but a "bonus" should they feel you might deserve it, support is lacking, protection not ever an issue and the child is left to fend for themselves, has no self-esteem and just survives, well there a pretty different outcome. Not that either scenario is perfect in the end, but it does provide a better basis for the outcome of each. Bully's are but unattended children with too much time on their hands, naturally they seek out the weak or the vulnerable. Whearas, the other child, busy with school, study, sports, extra curricular activities doesn't have the time to be placed in this situation, they are busy doing what they should be doing. Building themselves. Both set of kids, the one being bullied and the bullies are products, IMO of families that aren't paying attention and don't care. Not in every case, but I would dare say most. If not, then why is there time for all of this to occur and never be dealt with till, in the end, something drastic happens. The bully grow outwardly aggressive and the vulnerable victim grows inwardly destructive. Both are sad cases of over-all abuse to me. Does it excuse the bully - it never should. Does it excuse the depressed, no, they need help. So where is all that help I ask? Why aren't people paying attention to the signs, instead of waiting for the invetiable outcome that will come from both sides. What a tragedy. (Mind you, this is just my opinion, but I do speak from experience) so don't take my words as all factual, I'm pretty open-minded).

weR, this is a very tough and emotional topic. Everybody will have their perceptions of who to blame, but nobody can actually get inside the head of the person who committed suicide.

And, no one on the thread has ever committed suicide. Like I said: tough topic. The people left behind are the real victims.