What "Pro-Choice" is Afraid to Say.

"I don't care about unborn babies."

See that is the thing...it's a word that causes the divisiveness...When people use words like 'babies' it humanizes it with emotion...for good or bad PR.

The unborn is that, the unborn...it is a fetus, a growing mass of cells that can not live outside the womb until late in the gestation period...a parasite in all technicality if you will.

It isn't a baby until it is born...

I too care about the 'woman', and then, the 'born babies'...

dcstone01

"I don't care about unborn babies."

See that is the thing...it's a word that causes the divisiveness...When people use words like 'babies' it humanizes it with emotion...for good or bad PR.

That is precisely correct: a baby is an organism who has been born, and that is what confers personhood and all of its attendant rights. A fetus is a potential baby, assuming that it survives nine months - event without intervention, something like a quarter of all pregnancies are said to miscarry. Arguing that this mass of dividing cells is already a baby/person just because it contains human DNA is setting the definition exceedingly low, and I think masks the true agenda of the anti-choice Pregnancy Enforcers, which is religious. They believe that they are agents of their deity, and have the right to enforce their beliefs on other.

That's a quarter of known pregnancies. About 70% of all pregnancies result in miscarriage before the woman knows she is pregnant, so nature does not value every individual fertilized egg.

Spontaneous abortion is a natural function that removes defective embryos. A herd of deer will all spontaneously abort if the food supply is in short supply. This is true in other species too.

Before modern medicine, 50 % of all children died before five, so nature doesn't even value born babies.

It's time we grew up as a species and realized our every bit of tissue is not precious and nature herself would limit our overpopulation if we hadn't invented all these "life-saving" medical techniques. Because we are defying nature's plan, we are also killing every other species on earth. That doesn't make us precious or noble. It makes us destructive of all the ecosystems on earth and will eventually lead to our own extermination.

It isn't a baby before it is born. Never has been the legal or medical term for any stage of pregnancy. Why do people have such a hard time with the idea that a human zygote, embryo, or fetus has human genes and tissue, but is not a human baby? Should we go to calling newborns "adults" and giving them adult rights? It's the same idea. Using the wrong term for the wrong stage of development is always using the wrong term no matter how it fits with a political agenda.

For those who want to argue that "baby" is a common usage, that's true, but what we're talking about in the abortion debate is the legality of abortion, and the legal and medical terms are the proper terms to use when discussing the laws of our nation.

Some people use the word "rape" inappropriately too, but those same people would be outraged if they were charged with the crime of rape in the very same situation they commonly use it in (as in the disgustingly common usage of describing a business loss as "rape" or a loss at a sporting event as "rape.")

Completely agree with dcstone01 and the article, but want to add that it's not even considered a fetus until about 10 weeks (nearing the end of the first trimester). Just adding to the technicalities being pointed out.

The use of the word "baby" in the article just struck me as an honest acknowledgement of the emotion and sentiment involved in the issue. Disclaimer...generalized statement to follow. Typically when a woman is pregnant and wants to carry to term and keep the child, she is "having a baby". When the talk is of abortion it is a fetus. I know that particular opinion irks some folks but in honesty there is a difference in the terms commonly used depending on circumstance. WeRdoomed's use of the word just struck me as an honest acknowledgement of the opposition's feelings which seemed respectful.

Imo the best common ground for both sides is a combo of better sex ed and free BC to help prevent unwanted pregnancies. If the education and free BC are successful it would not be nearly such an issue as it is now. I don't believe abortion is an issue that everyone will ever agree on, but a lot of folks can at least agree on BC and education. The fewer women that have to go through the trauma, the better.

Good point Justme.

I've known women, who have had abortions for one reason or another, that would say "I aborted my baby." They explained it as they understood their decision emotionally, religiously, logically, and selfishly; emotionally - they wanted to keep it, religiously - knew it was wrong, but god would take their baby and care for it when they couldn't, logically - they did not have the means to provide their child with the life it deserved, nor did they want to set up the life for such a struggle that many wish they didn't have to endure (being in the system), and selfishly - couldn't bare to part with it if they had carried it to term.

People speak of abortion as if it is an easy decision for women to make, but don't try to understand the thought that goes into for most (there are those that abuse the choice and use it as BC, which I think is terrible, but still think the choice should be there for those who use it wisely).

Typically when a woman is pregnant and wants to carry to term and keep the child, she is "having a baby". When the talk is of abortion it is a fetus.

Are we talking about the legality of abortion? If so, then fetus is the only applicable term. Even the anti-abortion legislators use the term "fetus" in their legislation because, although baby is commonly used, it is inaccurate and has no legal meaning prior to birth.

That is why there is a difference in the usage. The use of 'baby' when discussing the legalities of abortion is a sentimental appeal rather than one based in law.

I agree that sex ed and freely available birth control would go a long ways toward reducing the need for abortion. Unfortunately, many who oppose abortion also oppose both of those.

Did you know that men who want voluntary sterilization can get it on demand but women who want it run into all sorts of obstacles? Why isn't something done to correct that discrimination?

For the same reason that there is an abortion and birth control debate at all: women's bodies are considered to be owned by men and/or the state. We have yet to change this mindset, which is why this article is important. We need to stop the idea that women don't own their own bodies or that women are not important except in service to male sexual desires and/or reproduction.

People speak of abortion as if it is an easy decision for women to make, but don't try to understand the thought that goes into for most

I agree. Even women who have had one and know 110% that it was the correct choice will often admit that it was a difficult experience emotionally. Not all women have such a difficult time with it of course and that is a whole other category of women who are disrespected.

Are we talking about the legality of abortion? If so, then fetus is the only applicable term. Even the anti-abortion legislators use the term "fetus" in their legislation because, although baby is commonly used, it is inaccurate and has no legal meaning prior to birth.

If I were writing a law, absolutely I would use the legal/technical terminology. I'm referring to everyday use - conversations, debates, parenting magazines, doctor's offices (if they know you want and plan to keep it - they tend to use "baby" as well.) In that context typically the technical terms are brought out only when "abortion" is a topic.

Unfortunately, many who oppose abortion also oppose both of those.

I've never seen any official stats on this but I suspect those who completely oppose BC as well are not the majority of our population anymore. Maybe I'm optimistic but I think a lot of folks are practical enough to realize BC is a societal need.

Did you know that men who want voluntary sterilization can get it on demand but women who want it run into all sorts of obstacles? Why isn't something done to correct that discrimination?

Oh I know and it galls me that a doctor can have complete say over when/if a woman should be allowed to be sterilized. I honestly don't know why that is tolerated or how it's even still legal. There are women out there who Know they would not be a good mother and do not want children. Should they have to go through the pain of an abortion because some stranger deems not to respect her reproductive wishes? Grrr.....

Maybe I'm optimistic but I think a lot of folks are practical enough to realize BC is a societal need.

Many want birth control made illegal right along with abortion. There have been many bills introduced into state legislatures to that effect. They right them in such a way that birth control would be deemed illegal under the guise of it being an abortificant. This is why we must be ever vigilent. These lawmakers are hypocrites. If they weren't, they would openly announce they are trying to outlaw birth control, but they don't. They try to sneak it in.

Church leaders are right there with them. They believe that nothing should stop the fertilization and implantation of the ova.

That doesn't mean all church members are right there with them. In fact, studies show that most Catholics use birth control and that Catholic women are the most likely to obtain an abortion.

But that doesn't relieve the pressure on these women by others in power. It is an even bigger hypocrisy when you realize that many of those who are politically anti-abortion will get an abortion for members of their family or their mistresses.

Some of the pro-lifers seem to cease caring about the baby after it is born. They want to prevent abortions, but then they do not want to feed, cloth, educate, and provide medical care for children who are born into poverty.

They want to prevent abortions, but then they do not want to feed, cloth, educate, and provide medical care for children who are born into poverty.

To some, pregnancy is a punishment for sexual activity.

Many want birth control made illegal right along with abortion. There have been many bills introduced into state legislatures to that effect. They right them in such a way that birth control would be deemed illegal under the guise of it being an abortificant. This is why we must be ever vigilent. These lawmakers are hypocrites. If they weren't, they would openly announce they are trying to outlaw birth control, but they don't. They try to sneak it in.

If it were ever put to a vote, I really couldn't see it going through. If a lawmaker did actually manage to slip in a ban, I have serious doubt the American people would allow it to stand. It would be political suicide for the responsible party in the end.

Here's some examples:

Birth Control Pill Causes Abortions -- Pro-Life America, Celebs ...

I painfully agree that birth control pills do in fact cause abortions. ..... 2) The person must know they are breaking God's Law, and ...

AFP: US state's 'personhood' law would hit birth control: opponents

Feb 18, 2009 ... WASHINGTON (AFP) — Pro-choice groups have warned that a law passed ... not only outlaw abortion but could also bar access to birth control. ...

Excellent article and excellent thread!

E

Does God? Why does he allow natural abortions?

The thing is that the reason men have no say in this is because they do not know what they want. If they are talking about controlling a stranger's body then it is a baby they are saving. If they are talking about a woman they love who doesn't love or want them then they are talking about saving the baby. But if it is a one night stand they last saw when they woke up who had no teeth and a mole that looks like a third eye covering their face knocking on the door telling them they are the lucky daddy, men do not see the little microscopic mixture forming as a baby. They celebrate the abortion and vow to themselves again be safe next time.

And that is why the controlling men (who really are equal in responsibility) are not the keeper or controller of a woman's body...they make no sense and are driven by emotion based decision making over a situation they have no control over. It is very much like a woman deciding which males should be sterilized and which should be left to procreate.

Most of the men trying to dictate to women would be placed in the sterilized group.

I do care about unborn babies/fetuses. I care enough about them that I want them to be born to women who are absolutely, completely committed to their healthy development, birth and upbringing. But when those conditions are not met, I care that the pregnancy will be terminated in a way that is safe and dignified to the mother.

Another hard truth we don't like to admit when it comes to abortion is that an aborted fetus will never know or even care that it was aborted. Abortion mostly effects a woman who has one.

I do care about unborn babies/fetuses. I care enough about them that I want them to be born to women who are absolutely, completely committed to their healthy development, birth and upbringing.

I feel the same way, Jane. I couldn't bring myself to say that I don't care about them at all.

I do not care about unborn babies either but I am not at all ashamed to admit it.

My only concern is whatever the woman's concern is.

I completely agree with the article and am so over the pro-lifers.

But if it is a one night stand they last saw when they woke up who had no teeth and a mole that looks like a third eye covering their face knocking on the door telling them they are the lucky daddy, men do not see the little microscopic mixture forming as a baby.

This reminded me of one of the scenes from Legally Blonde. They are in class discussing a case where a sperm donor wants visitation rights.

Elle Woods (aka Reese Witherspoon) brought up an excellent point. She wanted to sue the sperm donor for reckless abandonment for all the donated fertilized sperm for which he did not seek custody.

I like to remind people arguing this that pro-choice DOES NOT mean pro-abortion. I point out that no woman skips off gleefully to get an abortion. It is an emotional choice that any woman in a difficult position must make.

Making abortion illegal is also a way to keep women from reaching their own potential. When a woman is unable to make this decision herself, and forced to give birth, she then carries both the financial burden of the child and the time burden. It is a KNOWN fact that most children born out of wedlock are supported solely by the mother. The father of the child is then free to finish school, or work, or go to college. The mother is most definitely not. Unless a court holds the father accountable for child support, which COSTS THE MOTHER MONEY to persue, the father then could lead his life unfettered by raising the child.

My standard answer to a pro-life person is that if they are so against abortion, why haven't they agreed to raise the children of mothers who are forced to give birth?

Anybody remember that Monty Python skit?

Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is good. Every sperm is needed in your neighborhood. Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great. When a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate.

Good discussion, and good points all.

I can see where a person would be against abortion but that is their point of view and they should not try to force it upon others who do not share their view.

I prefer to call them "anti -choice."

Cold--- that is the issue i have to, I am tired of hearing Pro-choice is pro-abortion. Saying that implies i think everyone should be aborting fetus's. If a person uses that logic then all Pro-lifers are also for rape as everyone should be popping out a baby.

The saddness to all this, is the incredible disregard towars women's health in general. I am tired of discussing this topic with a person who is so Pro-life yet against welfare, sex education, birth control ect. If you don't want to help raise a child that was brought into the world unwanted (whatever the circumstance) then don't complain about it.

Pro-choice to me is simply my belief that I am not in any position to tell anyone what they should do, it doesn't mean I love the idea. And as a poster said earlier a lot seem to make pregnancy sound like a punishment of sexual activity. Rather unfair when you consider that punishment is only visited on a social level towards women. Not everyone willingly had sex.

The language barrier (ie pro-choice=pro-abortion) is part of the issue. And i have chatted with a few pro-lifers who admit some circumstances could call for abortion, that is when i tell them that makes them pro-choice.

jane, you said: I care enough about them that I want them to be born to women who are absolutely, completely committed to their healthy development, birth and upbringing.

You are 1,000% right in that statement. I know from first hand experience what it is like to grow up knowing that you are not wanted. I lived with that EVERY DAY for 56 years, going through therapy and everything else to try and get over it. Finally I snapped and told her that I was not going to speak to her again. When I did that, I felt free for the first time in my life.

Let me tell you what I went through. I was told every day that I was just like my sorry father, (didn't know him till later), that I was a slut, ugly, stupid, was never going to amount to anything. I have scars on my back and legs from being beaten with whatever she could get her hands on, even felt her fist several times. She loved to tell me how much she hated me and how she wish I had never been born. We were dirt poor often having dried beans one day and boiled potatoes the next. She would look at me eating and tell me whe wished I would choke on the food. I was brutally raped at 24 and she told me "maybe that will teach you not to ask for it". 38 years later, I can still hear those words ringing in my ears, but now there is no pain associated with it.

I tried so damn hard to make her love me for so many years. I didn't know what I had done that was so bad she didn't want me. Now, I just don't care. Who and what she is is NOT my fault. I am now, thank GOD in a place where I am happy and content with who I am and what I am. I've often thought that if I ever got pregnant, I would abort so fast it wouldn't be funny. However, as I found out at 43, she took that choice when I was 17 by having my tubes cut during another surgery.

I am NOT laying this out to get pity. I don't want anyone's pity. What I want is for those people that oppose abortion to realize that just might be the most humane thing someone could do to that fetus.

Sorry for jumping off track a bit, but wanted to let it be known what happens to the child sometimes AFTER it is born.

Phuggy

Thank you for sharing your story. I agree with you 1,000% too. It took a lot for you to share with us and I am glad you did.

Maybe, just maybe, you will affect one person into changing their mind on the topic. You are proof positive of what can happen when a child is not wanted.

You are also proof positive about how a person can change if that person really wants to change. You changed from always trying to get approval to approving yourself.

God bless you.

I know you don't want pity, but I still would like to say I'm sorry that happened to you. I would like to ask you a few questions, if you don't mind...Are you happy now? Are you glad you had a chance at life or are you saying you wish that you were never born?

If you don't want to answer these questions, I understand. I just think this is an opportunity to learn something. Thank you.

This is a very good, humane and sensitive discussion. I appreciated seeing this article this morning. I am pro-choice and always have been.

I would say the common ground is Liberty

You are 1,000% right in that statement. I know from first hand experience what it is like to grow up knowing that you are not wanted. I lived with that EVERY DAY for 56 years, going through therapy and everything else to try and get over it. Finally I snapped and told her that I was not going to speak to her again. When I did that, I felt free for the first time in my life.

Let me tell you what I went through. I was told every day that I was just like my sorry father, (didn't know him till later), that I was a slut, ugly, stupid, was never going to amount to anything. I have scars on my back and legs from being beaten with whatever she could get her hands on, even felt her fist several times. She loved to tell me how much she hated me and how she wish I had never been born. We were dirt poor often having dried beans one day and boiled potatoes the next. She would look at me eating and tell me whe wished I would choke on the food. I was brutally raped at 24 and she told me "maybe that will teach you not to ask for it". 38 years later, I can still hear those words ringing in my ears, but now there is no pain associated with it.

I tried so damn hard to make her love me for so many years. I didn't know what I had done that was so bad she didn't want me. Now, I just don't care. Who and what she is is NOT my fault. I am now, thank GOD in a place where I am happy and content with who I am and what I am. I've often thought that if I ever got pregnant, I would abort so fast it wouldn't be funny. However, as I found out at 43, she took that choice when I was 17 by having my tubes cut during another surgery.

I am NOT laying this out to get pity. I don't want anyone's pity. What I want is for those people that oppose abortion to realize that just might be the most humane thing someone could do to that fetus.

Sorry for jumping off track a bit, but wanted to let it be known what happens to the child sometimes AFTER it is born.

Phuggy,

I can't imagine the incredible pain and suffering you went through at the hands of someone who should have laid down her life for you if necessary, but rather (it seems) manipulated, demeaned, and abused you. I am sure that in your deepest moments of pain, you probably had thoughts like, "I wish I didn't exist" or "I wish I had never been born", but now, with the healing that has taken place in your life, would you honestly be able to say, "I wish I had been aborted instead of having the chance to live" or would a more accurate statement be, "Despite all the pain and suffering I have been through, I am thankful that I was not aborted - - never given the chance to live."

Please think this through with me. If it is most compassionate to abort a child who would otherwise live a terrible life, what type of formula or time-machine could be used to determine that the child would, indeed, live a terrible life? And what would the threshold or watermark be for determining the definition of "terrible?" Would emotional suffering be enough, or would it have to include physical or even spiritual suffering? Would natural accidents (like becoming a quadriplegic at age 4 due to being caught in a tractor's power take-off) be included among the criteria, if you knew, before the child was born, that they would happen? What if you knew ahead of time that the child's parent would be abusive for the first few years of the child's life, but would later become more Christ-like, and grow to be a wonderful, caring parent? Would someone not have to be all-knowing to make such a transcendent decision? I for one am glad that you were not aborted, and am thankful that you are alive today to share your story of resilience and healing. God Bless.

I would say the common ground is Liberty

I would agree.

I love you. That had to be the most honest and thought provoking personal insight that I have read to date. That was also pretty courageous of you to set yourself up as an unmoving target. I believe NO man has any say in this debate UNLESS he is the sperm donor AND even then, it should be the woman's final decision. To give birth or to abort has to be the ultimate decision and my heart goes out to all that have to do so. But, I find NO PITY for those that use abortion as a "lazy man's" contraception. THAT is just morally wrong and should never be abused. Peace.

Speaking in pure biological terms, a C-section removes a biological mass from a woman. Per pro-choice, once removed the biological mass is a precious human life. The transition to precious life, in this example, is a result of a medical procedure that was planned, scheduled and executed by a human being.

So 5 minutes prior to the procedure we have a biological mass that can be routinely discarded?

Both sides, pro-choice and pro-life, make good points. But these two extremes do have to meet at a point - the biological transition from mass to human being. It is here where the positions will never reconcile

weRdoomed

I was focusing on the 'common ground' question.

I agree with your preference to focus on aspects where positive progress can be made instead of engaging in endless opposition (time, energy and money) on a question that will NEVER be decided.

Another aspect of this issue that's hard to admit is that there are benefits to abortion, when it is considered thoughtfully and carefully. So many try to characterize the decision as selfishness, as if that is always a negative trait. Being selfish can save your life! How many young women have been able to finish high school, finish college, establish a career and have a happy and healthy family later in life because they chose an abortion when they were young? How many children were spared a life of poverty, exploitation, neglect, abuse and needless suffering because a young woman realized she could not provide an adequate environment for a child? The best choices are not always easy and do not always leave us feeling warm and fuzzy, that doesn't mean they aren't still the best choice.

if you look at the big picture it's easy to see the real motivations behind most of the abortion debate *that we have been debating for hundreds of years

the hispanic population in the USA is the fastest growing and the youngest. We need the young people to support the baby boomers. in the 1980s there were 4 young people to work for every senior. Soon it will be one to one. The Latino population will soon be the most populous in the USA. The people who wrote the AZ law dearly want to keep that from happening want to encourage white women to have more babies. Even force us.

Karen, Mary and Jayisun, I will do my best to answer the questions, and maybe not in the order they were asked. The person that gave birth to me, showed her colors before she got grown. I had found this out from several family members since I got out out of the nightmare. She is one person that never rshould have been allowed to have children, and yes, I know that sounds rather harsh, and I can understand if people don't care to see that. One of the worst beatings I got was when I dropped out of school at 16 so the three younger kids would not see her laid up in bed with any and every man in the neighborhood. Sorry, but I didn't think the younger ones should have seen that. I don't deal with them now, because they are just like her.

Do I wish I had never been born? To be very honest, there have been many, many times I had wished that, and actually tried suicide with drugs one time and by my lifestyle a nother time. Today? I am glad I am alive. Yes, I am very happy now that I have come to terms with all of this, but it took many years, many therapy sessions, and 3 days in a mental hospital. I honestly cannot tell what would/will happen if I heard that she died. I don't know how I would feel. I do know that when a friend confides in me that she has had a life that almost mirrored mine, I can tell her I know and understand, because I walked in her shoes and am alive to tell about it. Would I try suicide again? No, not at all. I don't need to die to get rid of that pain because i don't have the pain anymore. I am content, I am happy, and I have friends and step siblings that love me.

Mary, yes, I AM happy now. And I AM glad I was born. However, for 55 years, I prayed and wished for death. But, and this is a big "but" it took many, many tears, a lot of running from the past, and like I said a huge amount of therapy to be able to deal with it. I have been diagnosed with PTSD because of it, and have many physical ailments because of it. But yes, I am happy to be alive. I can look in the mirror now and not see an ugly, disgusting human. I see a womans face with wrinkles and gray hair that is not a knockout, but a pleasant, pretty doggone good person. I have the love and caring of some family and friends and most of all my God that I wouldn't trade for anything.

As to another question that was asked, I would strongly advise psychological testing before a woman has a child. That may not sound pleasing, but I can tell you this. Some women have no business at all having kids, and that is the main reason I think a woman and only the woman has the option to decide that. And frankly, some of them should be banned from having them .

Mary, yes, I AM happy now. And I AM glad I was born.

I am glad to hear that!! =) I'm glad you born too. =) You must be an amazing,strong person to have come through all of that. Thank you for responding. I appreciate it.

I'm pro-choice and I DO care about the unborn. The simple fact of the matter is that while unless it was to save the mother's life I would always advise against an abortion, I also can not bring myself to step on someone else's rights or limit a woman's choices on what she can do with her own body.

Our 24 year old daughter is married, but doesn't have any children yet. I wanted to make a point here about information and freedom.

We made it a point to give our daughter all of the information she needed about her body early. Since she didn't feel comfortable talking to me (her mom) face to face, we would take a drive in the car. For some reason, she felt more comfortable talking to me when we were sitting side by side and driving. We would talk about women's bodies, menstration, babies and how pregnancy happens (biologically), etc. That all started when she was about 11 and started her period. Later, we would talk about the things boys say about sex and how RESPECTFUL men treat women.

By the time she was in high school, our daughter had all of the correct information and felt comfortable with the way her body worked. We never made any demands about sex, except that all of her decisions be made in a responsible way.

Now that she's married, we make no demands about grandchildren either. I have told her that there is no danger of the human race fading away if she chooses not to have children. If she does choose to have children, we have both said to make sure she and her husband can afford to raise them. If they have them, the children are for THEM. We will love them, but we don't demand that they have them.

So, we have spent her life giving her all of the information she needs to make informed decisions and the freedom to make whatever decisions are best for HER. No guilt is involved. I believe that is the only fair way to raise a girl and it's the only way they can be free to reach their potential.

Wow, perhaps I read poorly but I don't think I read one dissenting comment in this whole section. That seems surprising, considering the volatility of the subject. Perhaps I shall be first?

I am a christian, never-been-married male. I am against abortion except in certain cases. For instance, the child is endangering the life of the mother. I don't know how I feel about rape and incest cases. I say this not because I expect you to have the same attitude, but just to let you know a bit about me.

My first comment has to do with when does a person become a person. Apparently most here feel that a person isn't a person until it is born. To me, this is an amazing declaration based on little more than one's opinion. We all spent that time in our mother's body. It is a stage in the life of a human being. Just the same as being a baby, infant, toddler, child, adolescent, teenager, adult, senior. Not recognizing what is in the womb as a person. As if it had the potential to be anything else. The cutoff of being "born" to qualify as a human being. I just don't get it. It seems just as valid to euthanize a baby when, after six months of parenthood, you discover you don't want or have what it takes to be a parent. It seems to me the "not a person until born" thing has more to do with out of sight, out of mind than anything else. I can't see it so it isn't real.

I know I can't change your mind about when it's a person, but just to counter your assumption that it is an opinion with some scientific facts. A fetus does not breathe air, cannot sustain life on it's own, and isn't recognizable as even human until about 10 weeks.

Also, it actually does have the potential to be a still birth, but I guess that would a person, a dead person.

(I apologize if anything I just wrote sounds rude, I truly don't mean for my response to be. I'm just quite tired, but can't sleep yet and wanted to respond.)

Not at all. Just like you, I expressed my beliefs and attitudes.

As to what you said, I don't see it as making a difference. What you list is a natural part of the person's life at that stage. I don't see how it makes one less human. One could say an elderly person sitting in a chair, drooling his or her life away without much that would be recognizable as thought isn't a person anymore. Certainly, it seems the same justification that started this conversation could apply. That is, they don't care about the unborn child. Many reasons are listed, but most come down do the burden such a child places on the mother. The same could be said for the elderly person. The elderly person is now nothing more than a burden and the responsible party may not have the resources to deal with it or just plain doesn't want to. What actually happens in many cases is these people get abandoned to the system so they are no longer a problem for the children.

This is a great article. I honestly am amazed that it has gotten this far (haven't read below yet) without someone threatening hellfire and damnation on all the sinners they see =P.

Phuggy - crazy story. It is amazing you ever got over that and actually became a rational human being. That is a huge journey in self-awareness. I do have to ask though, because you glossed over the question I wanted to see you answer from another reader. You are glad you are alive, and love life, but when it all is said and done and in your specific case if you had the chance to stand at the moment of conception and say "NO." would you do it? I know that is an odd question but to me that really spotlights the ethical debate. Obviously your story is one of abuse, hardship, and all the things we pro-choicers voice as our sword. So since you are the very picture of what I would have said is one of the main reasons abortion are humane would you still make that decision for yourself knowing that for 50 years this person will suffer. Granted most in this situation likely never recover, or succumb to their desires to end their painful existence, but I still find it intriguing. I have always felt that for myself I would gladly have opted to be aborted should I face similar circumstances. Personally I feel that if I was never born, I wouldn't be around to be upset that I wasn't born =P.

I love life, but I also feel it is our responsibility to protect the life that EXISTS. There may not be a tomorrow. There may not be a future. We have the here and the now, and we have billions of people on this planet that have needs, desires, and hopefully a future. As life today... it is our place to provide for life today. That means choosing the sure thing over the might be. The known over the unknown. The chicken before the egg ;). The more time we spend worrying about those who may (or may not, as many people have pointed out!) come after us, the more likely we are to fail all life. We'd already be immortal if it wasn't for dessenters =P .

Ultimately our society has to eventually face the facts. Unless God himself comes down and literally says "Hey guys, stop with the abortions, you are really screwing up my plans here." you have to assume that abortion IS HIS PLAN. I find it funny, and by funny I mean ridiculous, that people claim they know the plans of God and who he wants to live and die. We don't know where consciousness comes from. We don't even know where it resides, and it may very well be true that until a baby takes its first breathe on its own, maybe it doesn't even have a consciousness. Regardless the womb-inhabiter has no say, as it has no free will and no consciousness. Until we can prove otherwise there is absolutely no reason to entertain the notion of making abortion illegal.

If you are worried about God and the afterlife... then DONT HAVE AN ABORTION. You aren't going to go to hell because someone else has an abortion, so what is the problem? People die by the thousands every day. You can't save them all. You have to save who you can, and as our technology grows that will be more and more. We really need to STOP having babies more than we need to stop abortions. I mean seriously have you looked outside lately? It's practically raining people on this planet.

There is no common ground to be found so I put my hope in science making it possible for women to decide without the unrelated folks trying to attack them. Future versions in pill form may be available one day so they won't have to step over the misguided protestors.

A woman's right under the laws of this country is a woman's personal right not a debate opportunity for strangers to decde.

The scientific definition of life was never meant to be misunderstood to mean viable.

Ultimately our society has to eventually face the facts. Unless God himself comes down and literally says "Hey guys, stop with the abortions, you are really screwing up my plans here." you have to assume that abortion IS HIS PLAN.

Hopefully I'll be believed when I say I'm not intending to single out JGL here. What is said here seems to be a pretty common belief held by many and it really isn't about abortion, per se . Unless I'm totally misreading this, it seems to say only what God wants to happen will happen. Or you can put it the other way if you wish. Nothing will happen that God doesn't want to happen. Both are completely untrue.

One can hardly know anything about God and believe He wanted a child to be raped and murdered. It wasn't God's plan that this should happen, but the actions and will of some person God endowed with free will. It is true that God can work what happened into His plan but it wasn't what He wanted. People so often ask, if there is a God, how could He allow such a thing. The answer is, He has to if we are to have free will. The alternative is we become automatons with no choice but to do His will. The truth is, we make our choices. Suggesting that if God didn't want me to do it then I wouldn't be able to is simply not taking responsibility for my choices.

In the same way, to assume abortion is God's plan simply because He isn't stopping it is a misunderstanding of God's nature. It is putting the responsibility of one's choices on Him, not oneself.

Discussing religion is definitely a deadend street if you are looking to make progress, acheive cooperation, or extend clarity to someone in the midst of a confusing situation.

I find this statement extremely insulting to those whose believe that reality is best seen through the lens of a holy book such as the Bible. Drakkonis didn't bring up the subject anyway, he was simply responding to someone who did.

There is nothing insulting about that statement. If you were insulted, I am sorry about that as being insulted is no fun. But I do not apologize for a very true, very non-aggressive statement of fact.

Things are in FACT more confusing when you introduce religion because religion cannot be proved or disproved.

It may indeed be that bringing religion into the conversation would make it more complicated (not confusing), but if a worldview held by nearly one-third of the planet's population makes a claim to truth (and by "true" I mean true in the objective sense - - strange that that has to be clarified nowadays) then leaving it out of the conversation in totality would void the conversation - - especially with a meta-narrative worldview religion like Christianity that claims to hold transcendent, objective truth. It seems silly that you would hold yourself out as an objective, outside observer and conversation guide when in reality you bring your own ideologies, dogmas, and doctrines to the conversation.

Jay - a lot of people believing something does not make it true. Until the 1500's, we all thought the Earth was flat and the Sun went around us.

I never claimed to be objective. My article is specifically about me NOT being objective. And of course I'm bringing my own ideologies and dogmas into the conversation. Three of those is that religion cannot be proved or disproved, muddles decision-making, and distracts us from the real issue in this case.

I did not claim that Christianity was true (and if I did I would at least have the decency to offer some evidence). Nor did I claim that the fact that many people believe something to be true, makes that something true. You may have overlooked my point. Please re-read my post.

In addition, saying that religion cannot be proved or disproved is akin to saying your three points about religion cannot be proved or disproved. You've worked yourself into a circle of illogic, because you have not determined for us your threshold of "proof." And even if you had, what makes your threshold anything other than subjective when someone else may have a lower or higher threshold?

I specifically object to religion being part of any discussion about the rights of women. All patriarchal religions deny women rights. The worst abuses of women have been done and are still being done in the name of religion. So I refuse to recognize any religion as being valid or the word of god because no fair god would tell his followers he hates half of the population based on gender.

Loretta,

Good luck with that, considering religious belief accounts for the identities of a large number of people in this debate. You may not feel religion has a valid part of this discussion, but you're not going to get very far denying it is valid for others.

Since she didn't feel comfortable talking to me (her mom) face to face, we would take a drive in the car. For some reason, she felt more comfortable talking to me when we were sitting side by side and driving.

Colodomom, what a great approach! I actually read about that idea somewhere else as a good way to open the subject--start talking in the car because there is no eye contact required.

Drakkonis Loretta is correct, religion has absolutely nothing to do with a woman's lawful right to make her own decisions. Someone wanting to control everyone else may blame it on religion but religion does not supersede law. People can blame their control leanings on chickens and that would not matter either.

I appreciate that religion has its lawful place but the law that protects that right also protects a woman's right. Both are settled elements that no one can take away. Someone who believes in choice cannot end religion and someone who believes in any religion cannot end a woman's choice.

Therefore religion is irrelevant to any lawful personal decision.

your specific case if you had the chance to stand at the moment of conception and say "NO." would you do it?

That is a tough one, but I am going to answer it as honestly as I can, OK? If I knew at the moment of conception that I would have to live the life I did UP TO THE TIME I RELEASED THAT PAIN, I would say absolutely NO! This might be disturbing to you, and if so, I'm sorry. I wish I could take all the people that are totally against abortion back and let them see how I lived on a daily basis. Maybe it would create some understanding that isn't there now.

Some of the therapists I talked to would look at me like I was nuts untill I showed them the scars on my back and the dent on my skull. I wish they could have seen that woman trying to sell me when I was 14 years old. I wish they could see and feel it all. Even though I was sterilized against my knowledge, I am sort of happy about it, because I know with 1,000% certainty that I would never put another human being through that.

Does that come close to answering your question? I did the best I could with it, and please believe me, I WAS honest with it.

Norcal2,

You're missing the point. Unless this seed was intended for like minded people to get together and congratulate each other on how right their view is, religion will be a part of the views of some. You are in effect trying to control their point of view by saying it isn't allowed in the discussion. Is this not what you claim they are trying to do to you? You can't have an open, meaningful discussion without letting people voice their opinion, even if you don't agree with it.

Drak, what I am saying is they can blame what they think on chickens. It does not matter and does not change the lawful right women have. Maybe if we come from a place of honesty we can all talk but imo blaming or crediting religion for YOUR position is a cop out. After a while if they say it enough they can remove all blame for their position on the chicken or religion and it makes no difference. It is what they believe. I could respect anyone taking credit for their personal view. I don't respect trying to pull in a God as if it gives their views more weight.

I know many who believe different religions who are pro-choice so God is being used when it is brought in to add a false weight to the idea of conveniently taking someone else's right away - for a god or a chicken.

I'm really not trying be a jerk here, but you're still not getting what I'm talking about. My point is that this is a discussion. The subject is completely irrelivant. How can a discussion take place unless everyone is free to express their opinions?

I get why you think religion has no part in this discussion. I don't agree with you, but I recognize your right to state your opinion honestly and freely. If I were the moderator here I woudn't dream of censoring your comments or your right to them, unless of course you violated the terms of use for this forum, which are about civility not content, as I understand them.

Drak but isn't that the point...it is YOUR opinion. Religion has nothing to do with it unless your opinion cannot stand on its own and reinforcement must be called in for YOUR opinion. As I said many believers also support choice so who is abusing their religion within religion to make a Personal point?

I suspect the moderator would not dream of censoring your personal opinion or comments or right to say them either - unless of course you violate the terms. I try to always be civil and make the point and I assume you do as well so I am not sure why we need discuss that last paragraph or why you wrote it.

Hmm, maybe I'm not understanding you correctly but you make it sound like my opinion and my religion are two separate things. As if religion was a coat I put on when I need it. I an assure you that this is not the case. I do not simply believe in God, I believe God. While I often fail miserably in following God, I follow because I am convinced He is right. I do my best to reject what the world says is right if it opposes His morality. In short, I try to see the world through God's eyes and act accordingly. My opinion and my faith are inextricably intertwined.

As to that last paragraph, I didn't intend to offend. I have no complaint with your conduct in this discussion. Put it down as a poor way of saying as long as people stay within the rules, their opinion should be heard.

Thank you. I find the key is the points being made are what should be discussed, not the emotions behind them.

My son and I have had most of our "important" conversations in the car. And oddly on the phone, even when we're in the same house. Now we're pretty comfortable face to face, but we still have great talks in the car. We have great conversations over moments or openings that come up on some TV shows as well. There is a series on MTV called "16 and Pregnant" that HE records and watches. You should see the happy dance I do when he watches it. I watch it with him once in awhile, but he usually likes to watch in alone and process it. And he has some great insight now and is learning a lot. Yeah!

I only care about the real "babies." I consider obsessing over a fetus, which may not even survive to full term anyway, to be ridiculous and mentally detriment.

Agreed. There's something not quite right about this obsession with the controlling the lives of women they do not know over something as nebulous as "potential life."

That's rather like urging your daughter to marry a bum because he has the "potential" to be a good mate.

Unless his equipment is defective, kind of like what happened with Carlos II of Spain, though his defective equipment was the product of years of inbreeding.

I also wonder, do pro-lifers have some dead fetus fetish? Because they seem to enjoy ranting about and showing pictures and figures of aborted fetuses to the public.

Drakkonis - going back to what you said to me: I get what you are saying, and I see the thought process on getting there, but I do want to point out something. Many people use the argument against abortion, and many other things, while stating that they do God's will. If you are saying that God's will is for us to have free will, then how can you also say that it is his will for you to force people to follow what you believe to be God's will? Why does religion feel it is their duty to be God, and to speak for him? Why do they feel it is their duty to bring God's judgement and retribution on others? If they are saying that their way is the way God wants it to be, and then turn around and say "oh well he doesn't force people to do what he wants because people have free will and are supposed to make their own choices", then are they saying that they are BETTER than God, and can force their will on others in his name, even though he doesn't wish to do it himself? Where is the logic in that? People murder, steal, and subjugate in the name of God, and justify themselves this way. They claim that God wants "this" and God wants "that", and then if you say "well if God wants it, then why doesn't he do it himself?" it's all about "oh well he wants people to have free will and come to him themselves". Seems very convenient.

The underlying point of that sentence was not to say that abortion is God's plan. I wouldn't claim such a thing to begin with. The point is to say that regardless of what you believe, you have no facts to go on. All you have is hearsay and a book written 2,000 years ago that someone said was the word of a God and apparently enough people believed them that tada... you have a religion. There aren't any facts floating around to back up yours or anyone else's claim to the contrary. It is all based on "Faith", which is a pretty word for imagination and assumption. While I know deep down in the cockles of your heart you honestly believe that the Bible contains the very Word of God... myself and an increasing number of cynical humans who are just about fed up with absent dieties will never agree. Unless you plan on going back to the days of the Crusades where you literally try to kill everyone who doesn't agree with you, then you will just have to accept that maybe to get what you want you might need to use a little logic and common sense instead of magic and blind faith.

The Christians out there should be content that they live a Christian life. They should be content that their God will smile on them, forgive them of their sins, and reward them for spreading the word (peacefully) and following his teachings. They should be content that in their personal lives and the lives of their family they are free to believe what they wish, practice contraint and humility when they wish, and to not participate in the "rampant sinning" of all of us evil.... evil people. They shouldn't be trying to force their opinions on others just because they are so insecure in their religion that me not believing in their particular brand of fantasy is a threat to their entire way of life. Stop trying to be GOD.

Meanwhile the rest of us will deal with the REALITY of our situations, and abortion has positive effects on our society. Less people born, which is already a plus... after all we only have so much room. Children not born to unhealthy homes. Children not born to unfit parents. Children not born to people not financially positioned to care for a child. Face it... there are a lot of good things about abortion, and the only bad thing aside from the normal risks of operations is the hypothetical wrath of the afterlife. Excuse me if I'm not convinced that an all-powerful and infinite being is interested in whether or not I side with him politically. If he thinks eternal punishment is a fair reward for my ignorance then I'm sorry but we are all screwed. If a God is willing to punish us for ETERNITY (do you realize how long that is? heh) for any transgression... how can we ever hope to please him for Eternity? Some time down the road he's going lose his cool and throw us in a hole never to be seen again if he is that spiteful. Just saying... its a bit silly to believe that eternal punishment is a fair price to pay for anything you could possibly do in your meaninglessly short lifetime. 100 years might as well be NOTHING, and 1 murder in the span of infinity is just as insignificant to the universe.

Well said.

JGL,

Since you seem to be referring to #1.54 I have to say I honestly don't know how you came up with this from that post. It seems more likely a generalization of what you view christians are trying to do in general.

If you are saying that God's will is for us to have free will, then how can you also say that it is his will for you to force people to follow what you believe to be God's will?

I can't speak for all christians. I can only speak for myself. In that case, I can say I have no desire to force anyone to do anything. Nor do I believe it is God's will for my life to force people to His will. I do believe God gave everyone free will. What people seem to think that means is they get to choose what is right. That is a misconception. Free will doesn't mean you get to choose what is right, it means you get to choose between right and wrong. Right has already been established by God. My duty to you as a christian in this case is to warn you what God says.

Could I be wrong? Sure. That goes without saying. Your responsibility is to determine if I am or not. The only way to do that is to go to God yourself and ask Him. This is the main reason I would never force anyone about anything. I live my life according to what I believe God wants of me. That is difficult enough, let alone me trying to live yours.

Why does religion feel it is their duty to be God, and to speak for him?

It isn't that way. Or at least it isn't supposed to be. I recognize that there are those who feel it is, but they are wrong. Although true religion is about a person's one on one relationship with God, part of that relationship is learning how to truly love others. In order to do that we have to share God with them. I don't stuff God down peoples throats. The people I come in contact with, I don't innundate them with God. If the subject comes up I'll share with them what I know about God. If they indicate they don't want to hear it, fine. I shut up. If not, I share.

I don't think I speak for Him. At least, I don't think of it that way. I don't expect people to believe God or what He wants from us simply because I'm convinced I'm right. In fact, I often warn people not to believe what I say simply because I say it. I want them to find out for themselves if it is true. I don't even believe the preacher or pastor of the church simply because of his position. I take everything anyone says about God with a grain of salt until I find out for myself.

Why do they feel it is their duty to bring God's judgement and retribution on others?

Again, I suppose some christians are guilty of this, but this isn't what God intends. God's judgements are brought forth by Him alone. The only thing christians can do is tell people about God's words concerning whatever might bring judgement. For instance, I'd never say that any particular homosexual is going to hell. Not my call. That is solely for God to decide. I will say that the bible says homosexuality is not acceptable to God and that disobedience brings judgement but that's about it. Thankfully, God hasn't put me in charge of condemnation.

If they are saying that their way is the way God wants it to be, and then turn around and say "oh well he doesn't force people to do what he wants because people have free will and are supposed to make their own choices", then are they saying that they are BETTER than God, and can force their will on others in his name, even though he doesn't wish to do it himself?

I'm having a real tough time understanding what you're asking here. As close as I can come is that you're asking, if christians realize that God want individuals to make choices for or against God of their own free will, aren't christians putting themselves above God when they try to force that choice? Do I have that right? If so, then yes, they are. No christian should attempt to force anyone to do anything. Their only duty is to warn others, not force.

People murder, steal, and subjugate in the name of God, and justify themselves this way. They claim that God wants "this" and God wants "that", and then if you say "well if God wants it, then why doesn't he do it himself?" it's all about "oh well he wants people to have free will and come to him themselves". Seems very convenient.

The only subjugating any christian should be doing is in their own lives. We are to subjugate ourselves to God. Anyone who murders, steals and subjugates "in the name of God" doesn't know God. A good example of this is what happened in the "church" during the middle ages. God, and His word, were used for temporal power, not for God. God gets a bad rep because of how those who claim to follow Him act. I don't know how many times I've seen people condemn God because of the actions of those who claim to follow Him. This is unfair. It's the same as forming an opinion of someone you've never met based on how everyone else talks about him. You don't really know until you meet him.

The underlying point of that sentence was not to say that abortion is God's plan. I wouldn't claim such a thing to begin with. The point is to say that regardless of what you believe, you have no facts to go on. All you have is hearsay and a book written 2,000 years ago that someone said was the word of a God and apparently enough people believed them that tada... you have a religion. There aren't any facts floating around to back up yours or anyone else's claim to the contrary. It is all based on "Faith", which is a pretty word for imagination and assumption. While I know deep down in the cockles of your heart you honestly believe that the Bible contains the very Word of God... myself and an increasing number of cynical humans who are just about fed up with absent dieties will never agree. Unless you plan on going back to the days of the Crusades where you literally try to kill everyone who doesn't agree with you, then you will just have to accept that maybe to get what you want you might need to use a little logic and common sense instead of magic and blind faith.

Hmm. So many things to comment on here. But mostly, as you point out, it seems to be about faith. I dispute what your definition of faith is but I suppose that isn't a surprise. This more or less points to what I've been saying though. You are allowed to believe this if you wish. It is your choice and i have no intention of persecuting you for it, especially in any way relating to the crusades or the inquisition.

I understand why people feel God is absent. They think the best way for God to prove Himself is some sort of phycial address. Thing is, God doesn't prove Himself that way, as if the burden of proof is His. It isn't. That's like a child demanding their parents to prove they have authority over them. Second, even if God did physically appear, what would that change for you? How would Him showing up so you could see Him with your eyes change anything you've written here? Your judgement of Him would remain the same, would it not? So what use presenting Himself in some sort of human imagined dog and pony show be? All that would happen is being taken for granted like the sun being in the sky. Yeah, pretty amazing, the sun, when you think about it, but not really relevant to how I live my life.

The Christians out there should be content that they live a Christian life. They should be content that their God will smile on them, forgive them of their sins, and reward them for spreading the word (peacefully) and following his teachings. They should be content that in their personal lives and the lives of their family they are free to believe what they wish, practice contraint and humility when they wish, and to not participate in the "rampant sinning" of all of us evil.... evil people. They shouldn't be trying to force their opinions on others just because they are so insecure in their religion that me not believing in their particular brand of fantasy is a threat to their entire way of life. Stop trying to be GOD.

I agree with most of what you said here. Where I disagree is "of all of us evil.... evil people". I know you won't believe it, but true christians don't believe we are less evil than anyone else. True christians know because we are evil is why we so desperately need God in the first place. Because we accept Jesus Christ as our savior doesn't mean our evil nature is eliminated. It only means we are forgiven for it. We, with God's help and guidance, strive to overcome it, but it is always there. We are not better than those who don't believe in God. We still sin.

Apparently, you feel my faith is a fantasy. I can assure you that I don't feel this is threatening to me.

Meanwhile the rest of us will deal with the REALITY of our situations, and abortion has positive effects on our society. Less people born, which is already a plus... after all we only have so much room. Children not born to unhealthy homes. Children not born to unfit parents. Children not born to people not financially positioned to care for a child. Face it... there are a lot of good things about abortion, and the only bad thing aside from the normal risks of operations is the hypothetical wrath of the afterlife. Excuse me if I'm not convinced that an all-powerful and infinite being is interested in whether or not I side with him politically. If he thinks eternal punishment is a fair reward for my ignorance then I'm sorry but we are all screwed. If a God is willing to punish us for ETERNITY (do you realize how long that is? heh) for any transgression... how can we ever hope to please him for Eternity? Some time down the road he's going lose his cool and throw us in a hole never to be seen again if he is that spiteful. Just saying... its a bit silly to believe that eternal punishment is a fair price to pay for anything you could possibly do in your meaninglessly short lifetime. 100 years might as well be NOTHING, and 1 murder in the span of infinity is just as insignificant to the universe.

Everything you say here is from a human perspective. All the benefits you list of abortion are probably true from a human perspective. Since I am human, I understand all of those reasons and would agree with them. I also understand your anger at how unjust you find God and His judgement of us. Again, I am human. I've also felt what you feel about this.

Thing is, it's all human perspective. God is not human. His perspective is not ours. Perhaps you might feel differently if you could see it from His. I am learning to and I am beginning to see how right He actually is.

Drakkonis, you have a cool view on Christianity :)

I see abortion as a moral issue. When we try to make it a legal issue, then imo we are attempting to force God's rules on others and take away the free will to make their own choices as God intended.

Well I was thinking, but I should have said, that most of what I was saying applies to Christianity as I see it played out in society. Of course there are Christians who aren't pushy and judgmental, but they are minding their own business most of the time so you don't hear from them =P. My parents are Christians and they don't even have a problem with my beliefs, so I understand that it would be unfair to say you as in the personal You. I don't know you and couldn't make that determination on an individual basis right now. Unfortunately you are in bad company as you identify yourself with a group that happens to do all the things I mentioned =P. It's kind of like trying to be a member of the KKK for the awesome bonfires and bbq's and not any of the racist stuff hah. When you say "I'm a Christian, lets be friends" and the guy next to you ays "I'm a Christian, I'm going to kill you because you aren't." It is hard to make a determination on which "Christian" is the "real" one ;). One of my major beefs about religion is just that. You quantify something that most Christians say shouldn't be quantified. God knows you see him. God knows you worship him and follow his ways. Why do people feel the need to plaster it everywhere? All that says is that you want HUMANS to see you as Christian. To me, that already ruins the case. That just means you want a title, and the respect that title conveys.

I assure you there is no anger in me though, I'm sorry that I came across like that. I'm not ANGRY about anyone being Christian. My entire family is Christian and I love them =P. I just get passionate about my writing.

I understand why people feel God is absent. They think the best way for God to prove Himself is some sort of phycial address. Thing is, God doesn't prove Himself that way, as if the burden of proof is His. It isn't. That's like a child demanding their parents to prove they have authority over them. Second, even if God did physically appear, what would that change for you? How would Him showing up so you could see Him with your eyes change anything you've written here? Your judgement of Him would remain the same, would it not? So what use presenting Himself in some sort of human imagined dog and pony show be? All that would happen is being taken for granted like the sun being in the sky. Yeah, pretty amazing, the sun, when you think about it, but not really relevant to how I live my life.

Not the best way... just the only way. I'm not sure how you would think that wouldn't matter though. The whole point of people not listening to the word of God is because they think it is the word of Man trying to subjugate them, not just to spite Him. Can you HONESTLY blame them? I mean... have you been here on Earth for very long? =P. I was born, and now all these people tell me "God exists" hey look, here's a book that proves it! Um... how do I know that the Bible wasn't written 100 years ago, and all the "history" made up to back it up is just in a book. I wasn't there. For all I know my life is a huge experiment like The Truman Show, and all the stuff I have been told never really existed at all and if I got into a spaceship and blasted out into space I'd realize that it was all just a giant movie set.WHO KNOWS? All I know is what the people who came before me WANT me to know. I don't even see how that has to do with God at all. It isn't God I'm not having faith in, it is man. God hasn't given me any reason to have faith in him. He never asked me to. He's never mentioned it.So why would he expect me to follow His word, when all I hear are people's words? I mean.. no matter how you slice it if someone is LYING to me... than everything I know about God is fake, and people lie to me constantly... daily even. You want me to take a leap of faith that PEOPLE are capable of passing down a story for 2000 years without changing it. Haven't you ever played that game in school where you sit in a circle and tell a sentence to the first person in the circle and by the time it hits the last it is nowhere near the same? Um... I'm sorry I'm just missing the logic in all of that hehe.

Maybe that is just a human perspective, but I am at a disadvantage being human and all. Perhaps an enlightened and advanced being such as yourself that uses the eyes of God can see the facts more clearly ;). I, unfortunately, only have a human mind, human eyes, and human ears in which to see and understand the universe. I use them to the best of my ability, and I have to assume that I see, hear, and understand what God has set for me to see, hear, and understand. Any less and he couldn't possibly expect me to be able to come to the conclusions he's wanting, any more and you risk confusing the issue.

If you isolated someone and controlled every aspect of their life. Who they talked to, what they ate, what they were taught.... etc. They would be who you made them. They would know what you told them. They would believe what you gave them to believe. Everything would be of your design, and they would know nothing else. They would die, clinging to these beliefs as anyone else does. How is that different than religion? What makes the words you were fed truth, and the words another fed falsehood? What makes the word of one man better than another?

I don't know, and you know as well as I do that the discussion would continue for an eternity =P. You aren't going to altar my stance, and I won't altar yours... nor do I really want to. You seem to at least have a healthy grasp on religion heh ;).

The bottom line for me... is I was blessed with a logical mind. I have been inundated with logic my whole life. Everything I do is about logical problem solving, rational thinking, and cause with effect. If the human mind is such a thing as to be rational, so much to a point where no matter what I do I just CANNOT accept religion because it goes against anything remotely logical, then what chance do I have of ever being saved? Was I born to be damned? Is my intelligence the very thing that dooms me to eternity of suffering? I'd say I have a hard time believing that but you know I already don't believe it =P.

JGL,

You didn't come across as angry at all. I like the way you present yourself. I feel what I talk about is my views and observations, not projection on to others and you come across the same way. To me at least. Not accusatory at all. It's really a nice way to talk about things, in my opinion.

As far as the generally negative view you seem to have about christiantity, I didn't think you were speaking of me personally. That is, I don't think you were singling me me out. I have this to say about your general view on christianity, though. When we say we aren't any better than you, it should be easy for you to believe :)

The idea behind christianity is supposed to be that we recognize a. God exists and has a plan, b. we are sinners and not in accord with that plan, c. God has provided a way for us to be in accord with His plan. This is way oversimplified, but close enough for my point. This is generally what we as christians are about. Now, that doesn't mean all of us go about it the right way, although I think most of us do without straying into the behaviors you find objectionable. Part of that way is to warn others there are consequences for not accepting a.b.c. This is our duty, but more than that we don't want to see judgement come to anyone. We are supposed to reach out to you. We want to for your sake.

Unfortunately, you get people like Fred Phelps and his Westbourough Baptist Church. The guys who protest at soldiers funerals saying God is glad they're dead? And God hates fags, things of that sort. Perhaps it's people like this you describe as "christians who want to kill you" (paraprhase). They certainly present themselves as superior to the rest of us. I won't say these guys aren't christian because I think God is the judge of that, but I can see nothing in the bible that condones their behavior. The same can be said for groups such as the KKK. My opinion is they have hijacked principles in the bible to fit their own agenda.

The thing is though, it is unfair to point to such and declare christianity is bad. I believe the only fair way to go about it is find out for yourself. The only way to do that is to read the bible for yourself. Especially the new testament. I don't demand that one believes in God when they read it. But to fairly judge christianity, one must read the bible. Not in such a way as to critique it from your values, either. Read it in the spirit of trying to understand what the writer of the various books believed. Get into their heads and try to feel what they felt. What were they actually saying? What was their paradigm? Do that, and then make a judgement about christianity.

You know, even if there were no God, if the bible were truly just the work of men, I'd still follow it. I'd still be christian. You say later in you post you believe in logic. Logic is one of the reasons I believe what the bible says. What it says about who we are, why we do things and why we should act in a different way is so logical to me. When you really dig into the word, not just what it says, but the spirit behind the words, it just seems so obviously logical I wonder how so many have a hard time seeing it. Um, anyway... bit of a ramble there. Sorry.

Anway, what I said about God showing up physically making no difference. The reason I believe this is because although "lack of proof" is what so many claim is their barrier to belief, I don't think it is that at all. I think the real barrier to their belief is that if there actually is a God, then they no longer get to be the god's of their own lives. Think about it. Right now they go about their lives believing there is no ultimate consequences for what they do in life. They believe they answer to no one, in the end, about how they lived their lives. They feel free to decide subjectively what is right and wrong. Do you really think God showing up in some physical form would change their attitudes?

Try this experiment. Pretend God is real. Pretend there is an all-powerful God who has the power of judgment and the power to carry it out. That what He has decided is right is right and no one can resist His judgement. Now, read the posts of those who are against the idea of God. Who don't believe He exists. Read the posts of those who say even if He does, He is a sadistic, evil God. Do you think God actually appearing would change that? I have no doubt that a lot of them would be scared as hell, but ultimately, they'd do one of two things. They would either continue in their belief that God has no right to judge them, or they would attempt to explain Him away as just another part of the natural universe (subject Him to science).

Think about your own beliefs. If God showed up right in front of you in such a manner you believed He really was God and then He told you that abortion was wrong, or homosexuality or something else you may believe christians have wrong ( you get what i mean), would you change your mind? Would you believe Him? Would you change your life to one of submission to His will? Would you deny yourself to live for Him?

This is why I say it wouldn't make a difference. Perhaps you would change, but do you think most of the posters here would? After all, God showing up in physical form would not eliminate free will.

So, there they are. My thoughts. Thanks for your posts. I enjoy reading them and conversing with you. We may not feel the same about a lot of stuff, but I appreciate the way you allow me to believe what i do without having to attack me. I hope I come across the same way.

Justme-517872

Thanks. I just hope my view is right. Something you have to decide for yourself, and not just because it sounds good :) I'd hate to lead anyone astray.

I agree. Abortion is a moral issue. And not just the abortion itself. It's all the choices made before hand that lead to the abortion. Attitudes about what's right and wrong, lifestyles and whatnot. Abortion is a symptom of a larger problem. At least it seems so to me.

You touched on something Drakkonis, and I wanted to bring it up because it is a point in which our opinions converge. I have always stated that I feel there is great logic in ethical behavior and the teachings that the Bible tries to convey. I have always tried to say to Christians (the ones who seem so incensed that they cannot convert everyone around them) that if you teach people the logic of the way Christ wants them to live their lives, and not bringing the focus on the worship of the man, I think people would come to Christ on their own. If their beliefs are the beliefs of the Lord, then they are more apt to follow the Lord.

Religion, at its inception, was an important thing. We are a wild and dangerous species, and our practice amongst "civilized' men are... well they leave something to be desired to put it mildly ;). At a time when Christianity peaked was a time of lawless barbarism and unrestrained malice. There was nothing to keep people from all out destroying themselves but the law of the land... and the arm of the law at that time was little more than a nub to be shaken at offenders. =P Not only that, but many other problems that plague an early society are addressed in the laws of God. Murder, Stealing, Adultry, Envy, Jealousy, disease, population control, as well as good-will, charity, forgiveness, mercy, and compassion are all things that the Bible teaches, and things that people back then rarely got to take for granted. The fear of God and the eternal punishment he promised was the only thing to keep many people in check. Yes not ALL people, but how much more would lawlessness have reigned should they not have that fear, and people feared him MUCH more then than now hehe.

Many times when I see someone screaming into a brick wall about God and then they start just spewing theological rhetoric when they get frustrated that everyone already knows and is not the least bit impressed with, I will tell people that you cannot tell a child to do something, and then expect them to understand WHY they should do it. You must teach them how to think, and guide them to the answers you yourself have found to be true. If you see truth in the words you speak, and they see only their blind anger, or regard your truths as little more than opinions sprung from the womb of a parent who passed them to you, then you must show them step by step the way.

In my mind, God does not ask us to abstain from sex before marriage because he says sex is evil. He doesn't say it because he wants to deny love. He doesn't say it because he thinks people having feelings for each other is wrong. He says it because sex before marriage leads to children out of marriage which leads to bad child rearing and a new generation of deviant delinquints that know about as much about life as reality TV can teach them. THAT is why God wants you to abstain from sex. He doesn't want you to get a disease... and pregnant before you are ready... and to burden your life with a child you cannot care for. There is absolutely nothing incorrect about the spirit of that teaching. It is when people take it, and then say someone who DOES have sex out of wedlock is an EVIL sinner that will go to hell! People who ignore these warnings and run around and have sex pay for the consequences with their life. They either get diseases, have a child they do not want or cannot care for, or are just plain unhappy because the relationships they build have no foundation but sex. In the end it crumbles as the feelings of lust fade. Such is how we are, and such is our fate in those situations (on average). In my mind we should recognize the spirit of that teaching, and build upon it in a healthy manner. Now we have many different ways to prevent pregnancy and disease. If two people are responsible, and love one another, and are willing to support each other during their relationship, and take the necessary precautions against pregnancy and disease, then there should be no reason why they cannot have a relationship that includes sex. We all know sex is good for you, and we all know that we are mentally geared to NEEDING it to function at peak efficiency and mental health. Why do we need to glorify or demonize it? It is what it is, and a responsible person that manages their life and shows respect and difference for the dangers and pitfalls of an intimate relationship is in absolutely no danger of ruining their life by that choice (aside from random happenings of course =P) .

I believe that the "laws" God gave us were to HELP us, not to DAMN us. People think everything is a tool to send you on to your eternal punishment as quickly as possible. I implore and beg people to look at these rules as GUIDELINES to help you live your life to its fullest potential. Obviously Murder is wrong... there is no question about that. There is nothing positive about it, and even if you THINK you can gain something from it at the time... dark deeds will breed dark responses, dark thoughts, and dark days. You cannot hide from the negative intentions that you feed to the universe, and eventually everyone pays one way or another. Whether or not we witness that punishment is what makes people so upset. You cannot know one's mind... and what you perceive in them isn't always what is there. Yes it may look like someone who does something bad prospers from these acts... but I think if you were able to see into the truth of it, and to the end of their lives and look back on both the internal and the external, that MOST of the time you would find that they suffer. They may battle with the insanity, anger, and lust for dark deeds every day of their existence... and while they would have you see them smile and gloat in their actions, you do not know the depth of their pain.... and the conflict that they may endure. Maybe that doesn't seem like a fitting punishment to you or anyone else for what they do, but if laws cannot find their mark... then you have to accept the universe will find a way. I am humbled by the way I see the universe, and that I truly feel that intentions are visited back on you, whether in full light of day, or behind a veil. That isn't to say we shouldn't seek retribution for worldly crimes, as I feel that is a big part of how people get punished =P, but I think that when it comes to things that aren't like Murder and Theft, the one's that aren't really seen or punishable, that people reap their own sad rewards for their deeds. They sacrifice important things for the simple vices that they feel. They may lose love, hope, purpose, and their place in society and our world. They may regret every day of their life... and to you that may not seem like punishment, but what kind of life is it to live with regret every day? To me... that would be suffering.

Ohhh I meant for this to be short and here it is an essay again =P. I guess to wrap it up I want to point again to the fact that I was raised in a Christian home, and while I rejected the control and the anger that I saw in the religion, I kept and molded the values to fit what I feel is logic, reason, and good. I see the results of living by my morals and ethics every day. I live happy, and without stress. I am not ashamed to say that some days I start weeping with joy that overwhelms me. Usually driving with the windows down after spending lunch out with my girl, or just relaxing on the porch with her in my arms. I have people who TRUST and RESPECT me for my actions. I have reliable friends and family who I keep close to my heart, and whom I give and receive actions of charity and love. I treat people with respect and try to empathize with their feelings, and to not make them feel judged. I do all these things, and I do them because I see the LOGIC and the BENEFIT of it. I do it because when I do, I see the joy and love returned to me tenfold. I see people willing to help instead of seeking to hurt me. I see people who will be happy for my achievements instead of jealous. I am able to live in a supportive and open environment and I need not hide anything. I can HONESTLY say I have no secrets from my girl. No dark pasts I have to worry about her finding, no skeletons that I shove deeper in my closet, and no lies that I have to remember to tell. I live free... and for years since I let go of the anger I held for "sinners", my life only gets happier. I judge less, and am judged less in return. That isn't to say I don't judge =P Obviously I get that out of my system here on the vine LOL! But you know that we can't be perfect ;).

In the end, I feel that ironically I follow the ways of Christ more than many Christians. While I don't go to church, I thank the universe all the time for the blessings it bestows upon me. I apologize to God for being ignorant and not knowing how he exists, or if I live as he would wish me to and make the decisions he would want, and I ask that he guide me to make the right decisions about not only my spirituality, but about my life. I do not call him the Christian God, and I do not even imagine what he might be like or if he cares that I talk to him. I talk to Him because if someone out there is listening and has any part in the joy and my life, then I feel the need to express my gratitude. If nothing else... than the universe is responsible for my life and I thank it for existing so that I can exist =P. I do believe the Universe has intent though, and I send my positive intentions out into it, hoping it will return in kind.

Anyway... I've said enough obviously =P. Thank you for the conversation Drakkonis, and I apologize to the OP for the derailment.

I have always stated that I feel there is great logic in ethical behavior and the teachings that the Bible tries to convey.

That is exactly my view on this and also about the part about the laws being there to help us iso damn us as is usually believed. This isn't entirely off-topic as the rules about sex do actually tie in with abortion. Drakkonis touched on it also with this statement.. "It's all the choices made before hand that lead to the abortion. Attitudes about what's right and wrong, lifestyles and whatnot." Granted the "old-fashioned" values and morals are no guarantee but the more closely we follow them, the less likely it will be that one will face that dilemma.

JGL,

Thank you. As printed, those are just words, but I want you to understand I mean it in the deepest sense those words can convey. Thank you for your post. I understand you aren't just making a point. You are sharing your heart. In a world that teaches us to armor our hearts to the greatest extent possible, I am greatful for your courage and strenth in expressing what you feel. What you believe.

There is so much I want to talk to you about, but I can't right now. One reason is your post absolutely astounds me and I need time to internalize it. Another is it's 6:30 in the morning for me and I've been up all night trying to get myself ready for three days of graveyard shift. I don't feel I am... awake? prepared? enough to put what I feel about your post into words. So, for now, thank you for your post and please keep checking here for my reply. I will have one, but it may not be until after my three days of graveyard. They are 12 hour shifts and it givese me little time to respond as your post deserves. I will say this, though. You are so close to the kingdom of God. It seems to me that you have but to turn your head just a little, to see from just the tiniest different perspective. My hope is that you will not take that as prejudice on my part.

Anyway, please be patient. I will respond to your last post. And thank you again.

Drakkonis

Unfortunately, you get people like Fred Phelps and his Westbourough Baptist Church. The guys who protest at soldiers funerals saying God is glad they're dead? And God hates fags, things of that sort. Perhaps it's people like this you describe as "christians who want to kill you" (paraprhase). They certainly present themselves as superior to the rest of us. I won't say these guys aren't christian because I think God is the judge of that, but I can see nothing in the bible that condones their behavior. The same can be said for groups such as the KKK. My opinion is they have hijacked principles in the bible to fit their own agenda.

Drakkonis, thank you for your comments and for reminding us that not all christians (actually very few) are like the guys who protest a soldiers' funerals. Religion has always been confusing for me, and it is comforting to hear a reasonable discussion about it.

I will continue to check back ;) I am glad that you enjoyed the writing, as I have enjoyed yours. I look forward to the response.

I did enjoy it. It was kinda spooky, too. So much of it was like looking into a mirror, in a way. So much of what you wrote came right out of my thoughts and heart. I have one more day of work and then the weekend. Just got off work and heading to bed. One more 12 hour shift and I should have time to respond properly. Gonna be busy painting my bro's pool though. I'll get a response in there somehow.

JGL, My best friend is struggling right now with the sex outside of marriage issue. She just got out of her second abusive marriage. She has no intentions of ever marrying again but wants a relationship at some point and certainly doesn't want to be celibate (she's not even 40 yet!). Her mother (a pastor's wife) is telling her she'll go straight to hell. That struck me as plain out mean and selfish. I told her what you had said about those rules being there to help us - not damn us. She is starting to question some things and figure out for herself what she believes. I think your words helped a lot and really gave her something to think about. Thank you!!!!

Thank you so much for telling me that Justme. It honestly mists me up to think my words could carry such meaning to someone's life. That is exactly the reason I like to think I post on the Vine. While sometimes I get into more petty debates, in the end it is the times where I can open up to an open-minded person and achieve a level of dialogue that advances knowledge and learning together. I learn a lot posting on these boards, and it is through the discussion of my ideas and ideals that they mature and grow. I like to think that when it is all over, that I take the things I find true of other people's journey and apply them to my own life and opinions. Sometimes I don't see the wisdom in their words right away, sometimes I do :).

I think above all else your friend should remember that life is a gift, not a punishment. A loving God will look upon you and wish above all else that you can find happiness using the blessings he has made available. There are so many great things in our world if you take the time to find them, and it is sooooo easy to forget that, as bad things happen to us all. It takes strength and courage to step away from the reality that we have created for ourselves and to say "life is about life. Not death." It isn't a waiting room that we sit in until our number is called and we finally get what is coming to us. There is so much to experience, and to learn, and to love. Sitting around worrying about how God will punish you for trying to be happy is futile... because no one truly knows what happens after you die, and it is just as easy to accept that God will see that you lived life for him by loving and appreciating it as a gift he gave you. If you do the best you can to share this joy, and to be a good person in his eyes as well as others, then the way you do it should not be the important thing. I am not a priest, or fancy myself a messenger of the Lord, but if she believes in God, and wants to do the right thing in his eyes, then maybe that was the message God wanted her to have.After all, like you said, she isn't even 40 yet! She has a lot of life to live and I certainly hope that her loving God wants her to live it with joy, as she has already seen her share of suffering.

I "live in sin", so to speak, myself. My girlfriend lives with me, and we share expenses, chores, joys, and pain. We love each other more than anything in the world. We have sex... extremely good sex I might add ;). In my mind my level of commitment to her, and her to me, is marriage. I don't need a man to stand over me with a cross and pronounce it to validate me. We do eventually want to get married, but not because of God, but because we feel like we share a connection that will last a lifetime, and in a way it is the vice of pride that makes us want to display it to the world =P. Other influences are that it would mean a lot to our parents, and our grandparents, to see us happily married. I feel no shame for this. I only feel the purity of our relationship and our love for one another. I reject hate and anger and jealousy that people would project at me for living without the piece of paper that states we are joined. We are joined in the ways that it matters. We are committed to love one another, and we have no plans to the contrary. If something happens in the future that is beyond my sight entirely, but God knows my intentions are pure, and my love real. If he has a problem, like I've said before, I'll take it up with him =P. So far I only feel blessed and righteous, and thus I continue my path.

No one knows what the future may hold. She may think she never wants to marry, but you never know who will come into your life to change your mind later :). In the end she should trust herself and her intentions, knowing that what she seeks is true love in the eyes of her lord, not her peers.

The Bible has said that that which is true on Earth shall be true in heaven. Well TRUTH on Earth is made with logic, not emotions. :)

I wish her the best of luck, and you as well! Thank you.

It isn't a waiting room that we sit in until our number is called and we finally get what is coming to us. There is so much to experience, and to learn, and to love.

That's my view on it. I think if you spend your life focused on the after, you are missing out on and not appreciating all of the gifts here. She commented that she thinks she's let her mother do her thinking for her too much. I'm glad to see her starting to think for herself and define her own views. At any rate your words had unbelievably good timing! She really likes your view on this :) You just never know how your words and actions are going to have an impact, or even where!

It isn't a waiting room that we sit in until our number is called and we finally get what is coming to us. There is so much to experience, and to learn, and to love.

Great way to put it. I've never been able to believe that mistakes we make here in this tiny little short life is going to condemn us for all eternity. How can we learn without making mistakes?

Fortunately, I've been embraced by Divine Love on a direct basis and know there is nothing we can do or say that can remove us from the presence of Divine Love. We are part of it, and it is part of us. Divine Love is the only building block in the universe, so everything that exists is part of it.

The whole "angry god in the sky" routine is a manipulative guilt trip invented by those greedy for power and control and nothing more.

JGL,

Sorry it has taken so long to respond. Now I have the time to do it properly and I find myself stymied. How do I convey the spirit of what I intend to say to you without writing a book? I'll try to keep it short, but I'll probably fail.

I believe that the "laws" God gave us were to HELP us, not to DAMN us. People think everything is a tool to send you on to your eternal punishment as quickly as possible. I implore and beg people to look at these rules as GUIDELINES to help you live your life to its fullest potential.#1.86

This seems to be the core idea in your post. Everything else you said seemed to be in support of this statement. It's this I wish to respond to.

The reason your post affected me so strongly was that this is exactly how I used to feel. Still feel, in some ways. I used to think of the law as God's way of helping us, too. Sort of like the owners manual for this thing called life. Follow the law and you will be happy because you'll be working the way I (God) intended you to work. It seemed to me a simple cause and effect thing.

Not so, anymore. As you pointed out in the first paragraph, humans are right b astards. There is something seriously wrong with us. Why is doing the wrong thing so much easier than doing what we know is right? Sure, we don't always do what's wrong, but when it really counts, we have to struggle against doing what we know is wrong, but want anyway. Why?

To answer this question, we have to know who God really is and what He really wants. What if we really were perfect in the Garden of Eden? What if we walked in the presence of God all the time? Talked with Him. Saw Him in whatever aspect He presented Himself? I don't mean like we experience Him today, through faith. I mean He was right there with us. There was no sin. No dark nature to struggle with. Every single day was an experience in love and connectedness. No fear. We lived with God and God lived with us as we were created for. Imagine you and your girlfriend there. Absolutley no barrier between the love you share for each other. Never a misunderstanding. Never harsh words because you are living perfectly.

But then we fell. It's hard, if not impossible, to imagine life in the garden now. We don't know any other life other than under this shadow we all live under. Cut off from God. Separated from Him. Blind to His glory and might. As if all of us are infected with a disease that prevents us from seeing. The disease is sin. It causes us to reject God in favor of our own ideas. How true satan, in the form of a serpent, told us we'd be like God, and yet how terrible a lie it turned out to be. Now look at the world today. Look at how we treat each other. We cannot coexist with God in this state and rightly so. How can good tolerate bad? How can you mix oil and water? If good doesn't resist evil, how can it remain good? How can it not be diluted by what is bad? It can't.

Since God is the very essence of good, He cast us out of the garden. We chose not to be good. Each and every one of us pluck the forbidden fruit every single day. We do what we know is wrong. God cannot let us, who are by our very nature evil, live with Him. Yes, I say evil. Can anyone say they've looked at their own heart and not see how much they have to overcome? Things they don't like in themselves? Thoughts and attitudes they don't like yet constantly struggle to subdue? Sure, we've all met people we describe as good people, but that is just using ourselves as a basis for comparison. Not much of a challenge there. But compare them to an absolute ideal of good and they fall short as well.

So God has cast us from His presence. Where does that leave us? Screwed? No. God wants us back. He wants it the way it was before. The way it was intended to be. Us and Him in love. Constant love and neverending joy. No shadows anymore. So how does He go about accomplishing this? He begins by giving us the law. What is the law? At first glance, it seems a set of rules for living a life pleasing to God. Yet we find out in Jesus' day that what it was really intended to do was condemn us. The real purpose of the law was to show us we can't live up to God's standards. At some point, we're going to fall short. Maybe you won't committ murder, but in your heart, maybe you have. Jesus told us that if you lust after a married woman, you've committed adultery in your heart. The heart is the key, because out of the heart, actions are done.

The law was given us less to show us how to live than to show us the evil in us. How could we even know what evil was unless the law showed us? It was the standard given us by the ultimate Authority. And that Authority said failure to live up to the law was eternal punishment. God's goal is to free existence from evil. If we are evil, that means us, too. Yet He didn't leave us hanging. He knew the only way to save us was to do it Himself. He wants to save us because He loves us with a love so great we will never fully understand it until we are with Him. Every thought of God is bent upon the goal of saving us. All His efforts throughout history has been toward that goal.

Someone has to pay for that sin. As life shows us, there are consequences for every action. The consequence for sin is death. We can't pay it. We don't have the credit. So God sent God to pay it for us in the form of Jesus. He paid the price for what He didn't do out of love for us. The goal wasn't simply to keep us from Going to hell. It was so we could be with Him again. I suppose fear of hell is a better motivation than none at all, maybe, but the real motivation is to be reunited with God. To live eternally in perfect love, where there never ever is any shadow of wrong. No worries, no concerns, no tears.

So, yeah, you can apply the laws listed in the bible to have a better life in this world. And you will have a better life. The law tells us how we were meant to work. Yet doing it for only that reason is missing the point, I think.

Your example about premarital sex, for example. All the reasons you list for not having it are true. Yet it doesn't go far enough. You list the negative effects of premarital sex. What of the positive aspects of waiting until you are married? You yourself say in a later post (#1.93) in your heart you feel married to your girlfriend. God considers you married as well, even though you haven't formalized it in human terms. Look at the benefits you list in your committment to her. God sees the two of you as one person. The love you feel each for the other is an example of the positive side of waiting. You don't get that in casual sex. We weren't meant to. Casual sex is a mockery of what you and your girlfriend share. The marriage of committment. It is a model of our relationship to God. It is a model of that sort of committment.

The law will not save us. It condemns us. We can't overcome our natures. Jesus can, and He can bring us to His father. All the things you admire in the law Jesus can help you realize. He can get you beyond the simple cause and effect of the law and into the true spirit behind it for the ultimate goal of returning to God.

I hope I haven't offended you but the law is so much more than how you're treating it. It is a wakeup call. You see that the law is good and it helps one avoid troubles in this life, but if you realize that much, then go farther and see that God has much more of a plan for you than just passively hoping you follow the law.

OK...I am going to open a big can of worms here, but the bible says that God new you before you were conceived.....we as a society have made the mistakes, not God. Give the baby up for adoption....I honestly know that when a woman aborts her baby, after about seven years the quilt becomes unbareable.....I also know women that have been told to abort their babies because of health issues and have chosen not to and the baby has lived and been fine. Why do we have the right do undo something that God has done? Especially when we make mistakes???????

Why do we have the right do undo something that God has done?

God is going to knock me up?? I don't think so.

If I get pregnant it will be because my birth control has failed, or I was raped. I will not carry the fetus to term, so adoption is not an option. I don't want to be pregnant and I certainly don't want to give birth. And if god wanted a child to be born he'd know better than to put it in MY uterus....wouldn't he??

Why do we have the right do undo something that God has done?

Would you say the same of cancer, specifically children with cancer?

Funny how women must accept "God's" decision they must be pregnant, but that the same people who say this think nothing of using prescription drugs or surgery to maintain their health or even to keep that good ole penis upright so it can sire more fetuses.

Why don't I hear the Bible thumpers speaking out in equal force about "God's" will with erectile dysfunction and the use of Viagra?

Why do all hospitals allow representatives of various faiths to minister to their patients? If their patients were abiding by "God's" will they'd be at home, awating either a miraculous cure or their own death, so why aren't these ministers telling the patients to get out of that hospital bed and go home to await "God's" will?

Loretta and weRdoomed... that is an extremely good point. The answer is because no one knows God's will. Replace the word God with MY and you pretty much solve the problem as to why God wants so many things from us all the time and why it changes day to day =P.

Drakkonis, I don't really get offended. To me there is just attitudes and opinions that help our society progress, and then those that hurt it. I have long ago given up on being personally outraged at people's behavior. It is just way too hard to be surprised anymore about the horrible things people say and do, must less waste my time feeling outraged.I get frustrated sometimes imagining the wasted potential the human species has, and where we could be if we just dropped all of these issues and started focusing on reality, but it never makes it to complete outrage... just generally a rant to the people who will listen hah.

On that note I would like to say while I appreciate your view, I have a hard time aligning myself with it. For one I don't for a second believe that God created us just to put us into a pristine glass bauble and see just how happy he can make us 24 hours a day for eternity. I also don't believe he could be "tricked", and therefore be at all surprised that man all of a sudden wants to have more than just an antfarm existence. Unless you believe God is an alien race that planted our DNA on this planet and then thought it'd be neat if they could actually create a race that knows nothing but awesome happiness. Then after they realized we obviously aren't capable of existing peacefully forever, they grew bored and left. If he is an all-powerful being, then the entire idea is... ludicrous at best. No better than a fairy tale to explain how us poor humans lost their Utopia and now have to earn it back throughout the next eternity. I mean come on by all accounts this is 1 man and 1 woman we are talking about. If the single representative of our entire race cannot accept paradise and live as God wishes, then how can God EVER expect for the entirety of the human race, now 8 billion strong, to live like that? If a single sin of curiousity and wonder is worth all of this... everything we suffer... then what hope could we ever harbor about an eternity of peace and love? It's a bit amusing to say the least. Not only that but do you believe that those who go to Heaven lose their free will? If an angel, who isn't even supposed to have free will, can turn against God... then what hope would we ever have? I would literally give it a week if he took everyone to heaven(for arguments sake lets even say that it is everyone that is SUPPOSED to go =P) right now and GAVE them anything they ever wanted for it to all blow up if we had the same free will we possess right now. SOMEONE is going to break a law if there is a law to break. If there are no laws... then what is the point in having us live for a few years with laws? If any other human's actions can universally damn us, or even damn someone else at all, then we are all screwed and there is NO help to be found.

The truth is we will never be perfect. We will never come together under the banner of God and sing hymns and love one another. Some people would literally rather die before doing that even if they had the option. I don't like singing... why the hell would I want to sing praises... or hymns... or hold hands. I'm just not too excited about the prospect. One funny memory I remember having in church is when they were describing heaven as a place of worship and happiness and singing and etc I was sitting there going "what?! THAT is heaven!? Oh no... I don't want to go there either!" lol. For a while I was really depressed that Heaven sounded like the most boring place in the Universe haha. In my mind they basically told me it was like going to church only 24/7/365/999999999999999999999999999999^999999999999999999999999999999999999999999. I could barely stand an hour of it, much less eternity ;). I found myself debating between singing and floating in lava and I think the lava was winning at the time.

Point is I'm much much to cynical for all that. I use a lot of words to try and convey my meaning to people, and many times I seek to use common terms and express my views in a way that will be easier to accept for people who see things in a certain light. When you boil down to it though, I don't believe God has emotions like we do. As most of our feelings come from chemical reactions in our physical bodies, and God would not possess such a thing.

Not to mention the fact that our lifespans don't allow for this sort of monumental self-discovery. Most people are dumb, plain and simple. The average IQ being 108 means that half of our population or worse is below that mark. Especially considering under 70 is a genetic disorder and not very prevalent, and you have people in the 200+ range skewing the average up. Regardless on the exact statistic which isn't really relevant for the discussion, the point stands that most people will live and die as little better than animals. They will never come to terms with their existence or even become self-aware. They will merely exist, and they will carry with them the actions and ideals of whomever came before them. That includes all forms of actions ranging from depraved to saintly. Any other outcome is so statistically improbable as to be impossible.

So in all seriousness you are expecting millions upon millions of monkeys to all exhibit the same behavior, which is entirely against their very nature, based on a book. I feel exasperated just trying to imagine that, much less attempting to do it.

At the very core of it we are exactly what we were made to be. It takes you only a few moments and a cursory knowledge of statistics to realize that. We are like the tides... predictable and powerful, moved by a force we cannot see. In the end we will do exactly as you'd expect us to. So where does this mockery end, if it is all designed for just that? People talk about how the end times are coming and we are so depraived and we're about to be judged... so... bring it on. The next few years aren't going to bring any pleasant revelations about our race. We are exactly what we seem to be. We will fail God, just as we failed him the first time and have continued to fail him for the last 2010 years since Jesus was supposed to save us from ourselves. If we are given a chance we will continue to fail him for the NEXT 2000 years... so you tell me what is the point of continuing the charade?

If God is the creator of all things, than he is the one who created evil. He said what is good, and thus evil was invented. Yet we give Satan the credit. Satan, too, is a creation of God, and is no more and no less than what God made him to be. If Satan defied God's will, then it is because God wanted him to.If God wanted a perfect world, he would have made us perfect. He would have made us need nothing, and want nothing. Yet he didn't. Since he didn't, then he must have wanted us to question our existence and to sin. Saying he didn't want any of these things and yet we did them anyway is like saying you didn't want your computer to boot up to windows even though that is what you installed on it.

I think there is good and evil because without opposites, there is no conflict. Without conflict, there is no purpose. Without purpose, then life will not thrive and exist. You can see the actual benefits of conflict when they invented free market enterprise. Competition breeds innovation. Without it things will not strive to change and become better, they will not progress. If Man's life was good, and we wanted for nothing, than we would strive for nothing. We are told NOT to aspire to greatness because God knows that is EXACTLY what we WILL do. Oh how we love to buck authority =P. Good and Evil compete in this world, and the result is that the strongest survive, and progress is achieved. Often I wonder if it really matters which prevails... good or evil. Perhaps the real point is that God doesn't want to see what we can do WITH him, since he knows already. Maybe he wants to see what we can do without him. Since being content is a really terrible motivator for change, I suppose putting us into direct conflict all the time was a better choice.

But as far as JUDGMENT is concerned. I laugh. My entire existence is a judgment on my actions and the actions of everyone around me. I'm already being punished more and more every day by the fools who live here with us =P.

I see abortion as a moral issue.

What's moral about taking away and or regulating a woman's/girl's rights and choices, forcing her to carry a pregnancy to term and give birth against her will, thus putting her life and health at risk? Nothing. It's selfish and ignorant to use your personal and religious beliefs to take away and or regulate people's rights and choices.

Why do we have the right do undo something that God has done?

So if God wants to rape a woman, or girl, like he raped Mary - which resulted in Jesus's conception - he has the right to do so and we [we women] have no right to say "no" because God is God? Great.

You bring up an interesting point. If God wants us to have Free Will, then how could he make a woman pregnant with his child without asking her first? If its true that he did that, then it means that he IS willing to do things to us against our will and force us to serve him. In which case you could rightfully blame him for every bad thing we ever do, since he had the power to stop us, and he exercises that power on occasion when he feels the urge =P.

You know it isn't unheard of for women to have virgin births? What happens is they think that not having sex means they cannot get pregnant... but someone forgot to mention that if you let a guy do his thing all over you that those little suckers can SWIM. Neither here nor there maybe but I'm just saying, that 2000 years ago someone wouldn't know that. While they may be 100% truthful in saying they never had sex... that doesn't mean they didn't get a little semen on their vagina and get pregnant =P. They weren't exactly hygienic.

The mythology of the virgin birth predates Yeshua by hundreds, if not thousands, of years. It was used to signify the birth of an important leader. Aristotle, Julius Ceasar and Alexander the Great were all said to have been born of a virgin and sired by a god. Mithras, the Persian god who shares many myths with Yeshua, was also said to be born of a virgin on Dec. 25th. In fact, in a Roman tomb under St. Peter's basilica, there is a mosaic portraying Yeshua as Mithras. It is circa 200 CE. Mithras was adopted as a Roman god about the first century. It is very possible his mythology was simply transferred to Yeshua.

So while I agree that semen being deposited on the vulva can cause pregnancy, I doubt that was the case with Mother Mary, who could have been stoned if she allowed someone to do that to her.

The Jewish writings about Mary say she was a mother out of wedlock and her child was a bastard. However, the child was not named Yeshua, so it could be a different Mary.

Hah, I'm sure there are any number of things Mary could do to get herself stoned. She was a woman after all. Being born in the middle east gets you halfway there...

I was going to say back then, but sadly it doesn't require that qualifier.

Assuming what is myth and what is half-truth is really 100% futile and wasn't really what I was trying to get at :). I was just pointing out that even a "virgin birth" honestly doesn't mean anything considering the definition of virgin is not having sex and sex isn't technically what makes someone pregnant lol. (as much as some people would like for everyone to believe it does! Kinda like how guns kill people.)

WeR, I am very late to this thread, but I just wanted to say....there you go again, tackling a totally non-controversial subject.

I am a man, and therefore I have no opinion on abortion. Does that make sense? I mean, how can I sit on a pedestal and dictate to ANY woman what she should do with her body? It is not my jurisdiction.

That being said, it logically follows that no woman can sit on her pedestal and dictate to ANY other woman what she should do either. People who claim religious justification for pronouncing judgement on a woman's right to choose are overstepping their bounds.

I also find it ironic that the same basic group of people who want to make abortions illegal are totally against any kind of publicly funded support to the woman after she is forced to give birth. You know, have the baby, see ya' later.

I also find it ironic that the same basic group of people who want to make abortions illegal are totally against any kind of publicly funded support to the woman after she is forced to give birth. You know, have the baby, see ya' later.

It would be very ironic if it weren't grossly inaccurate.

weRdoomed - I'm with you completely in regards to consideration of the fathers.

It would be very ironic if it weren't grossly inaccurate.

It's very accurate. The pro-lifers/anti-choicers don't care about the fetus after it leaves the womb. Soon after it's out they go off to harass and terrorize the next woman/girl considering having an abortion.

No it's actually quite uninformed. That's one of the more hypocritical arguments not based on factual info that tends to be presented. If you're referring to the frothing-mouthed freaks terrorizing women at clinics, in some cases it's probably true, in others not so much.

Justme: I think the origin of the statement/belief that pro-lifers don't care about the fetus after it leaves the womb is based on the fact that most (certainly not all) pro-lifers are republican. Most republicans favor eliminating or seriously reducing many welfare programs. I agree that welfare needs reform so that it is actually a bridge and not a crutch. However, there is valid reasons for having welfare. So, the perception is that many pro-lifers (especially those that are republican) want to require the pregnancy be carried to term - but, then would offer no social welfare program once the child is born (should it be needed).

Or at least no social welfare program that doesn't involve preaching their bible BS.

Hi Summer! :)

Since my sister is one of the mythical "welfare queens" and has made quite a bit of money over the years I'd be one of those griping about the current system.

Isn't there also a perception that many republicans are religious? Or at least most pro-lifers are religious?

And then there are the pregnancy crisis centers which I've seen criticized a lot. On this same thread another poster decribed his/her work done there and what the center does to support new moms. That also shoots down the "they don't care" jargon.

Really if that's considered a "good" argument it's a miracle the pro-choice side is able to snag any new recruits!

PCC's don't care. All they care about is spreading their religious BS and misogyny.

Auteur, Again you are showing much more hate than intelligence. Scroll through the comments on this very same seed and you'll see more enlightening information from someone who actually works(ed) at one.

I know you are an intelligent, passionate person. Try not to let your emotion overshadow so much. When your emotions aren't so prevalent you come out with some awesome posts.

Justme - I think there are plenty of pro-lifers that do care once the baby is born. However, I can also see where the perception that they don't care has come from - when you look at the way many pro-lifers tend to vote on issues not related to abortion. It's not right to make a blanket statement - no matter what group it's about. I was just pointing out one of the main reasons why statements like "pro-lifers don't care once the baby is born" get made. I am quite sure there are a lot of pro-lifers out there that do care what happens to the child. At the same time - the reasons for wanting to eliminate welfare programs often are "don't have more kids than you can handle" or "it's not the taxpayers responsibility to take care of your kids". Those statements have some truth behind them and I will be the first to say that welfare needs reformed. However, those statements, when coming from someone who also advocates a pro-life position, seem slightly, well, like they don't care about the child once it is born. Absolutely people should not have more kids than they can afford - which is actually one of the top reasons sited for a woman having on abortion.

Summer, I couldn't agree more, especially with your last sentence, you couldn't have said it better. One could also look at it another way. If abortion rights are taken away and welfare for single mothers is harder to get or non-existent, many believe that will increase the availability of newborns for adoption. However there's a horrible backlash that would occur, this will also increase the rates of abortion and the rates of women dying by self or back ally abortions.

http://timestranscript.canadaeast.com/opinion/article/730340

"A country's abortion rate does not seem to depend on whether or not abortion is legal. Actually, abortion rates are higher in countries where abortion is illegal than those where it isn't. The Netherlands has one of the lowest abortion rates -- though abortion there is legal, free and widely available -- because much emphasis is put on family planning. Certain countries where abortion is completely illegal have high abortion rates. In the United States, there has been a small decline in the number of abortions in recent years and the great majority of that decline has been traced to states with few or no abortion restrictions, but with a commitment to sex education and widely available contraception."

Summer, I know you are a rather fair person and do understand and appreciate your explanation. I think the thinking behind statements about having kids you can't afford are often either misunderstood or sometimes deliberately misinterpreted.

I'm going to be a bit general here so please note I am aware there are exceptions and many different circumstances at play on this issue.

Those statements delve into the issue of personal responsibility. I am one who is very big on that also so I get what a lot of people are trying to say there. If you go by the Guttmacher stats with the majority of abortions, the women were not responsibly using BC. (Yeah I know the men were present when it happened. Personally I'd never trust something that important to a man but I'm a tad jaded I think.) I can't imagine that many women are having sex who don't know that they can get pregnant from it. In comes that R word again...if you don't want a child why would you not take preventive steps to avoid pregnancy?

At any rate, I consider making sure I have my bases covered if I don't want a child to be the responsible thing to do if I'm gonna have sex. So for many years I did. When I was ready, I had a kid. I considered it a very serious responsibility to make darn sure I could properly care for and support her before I allowed myself to get pregnant. So when I see the neighbor's girl having 5 kids before she was old enough to drink, never working a day, and then moving off into her nice new tax-payer funded housing once her monthly check got rolling yeah I'm right there with those who say don't have them if you can't support them. That sort of thing pisses me off and does many others. She has 0 intention of becoming self-supportive. That isn't assumption - I know her quite well. It shouldn't be my responsibility to support that sort of crap.

Our current programs foster this behaviour. Many moms who have been in the system and fought like hell to get out of it will tell you it is hard as hell to climb up and break free. It needs major revision. The system should be set up the help moms better themselves and get to a position where they can support themselves and their kids. We should be doing every thing we can to make it easier for them to succeed - not keep them down.

At any rate the general view is that in many cases if the woman had been responsible in the first place the abortion would never have been an issue. Again, that's based on the stats. And I agree. If indeed the woman goes in for an abortion because she knows she can't take of a child then yes she is being responsible as well but the first and best line of defense has already been failed. The life growing in her will pay for it and she will pay a price as well.

I also see the argument from pro-choicers that pro-lifers don't care to be rather hypocritical. Most of the time the explanation I get on that is "Well since I advocate killing it, I have no responsibility for the ones born". Imo that is a cop out on our social responsibility but that may be another thread lol.

I agree completely with Lola about banning abortion and cutting down welfare availability. Both would do a lot of harm and would only make things worse. Also couldn't agree more about the focus on educaton and BC. That is the real answer and the real solution. There will never be a universal agreement re abortion but most of us can agree to helping prevent it.

If you go by the Guttmacher stats with the majority of abortions, the women were not responsibly using BC.

And is Guttmacher a religious fanatic? I'd rather irresponsible women get abortions than irresponsible women like Michelle Duggar keep popping them out like clowns at a circus.

I have a link somewhere but I can't find it. I'll keep looking, but in the mean time I'll paraphrase what it says. "Approx. 56% of unintended pregnancies are pregnancies where women were using some form of birth control. Failure rates of birth control is higher than most believe. Of the 50 percent of unintended pregnancies, about half choose to terminate the pregnancy."

http://www.alternet.org/reproductivejustice/87874/?page=1

There's also a huge access issue;

"According to the Guttmacher Institute, a research organization for sexual and reproductive health, one of the major contributing factors is simply a lack of access -- economic gaps, racial disparities and insurance status all play a role in determining women's access to birth control. And they all seem to have slipped under the public radar.

According to the Guttmacher Institute, a research organization for sexual and reproductive health, one of the major contributing factors is simply a lack of access -- economic gaps, racial disparities and insurance status all play a role in determining women's access to birth control. And they all seem to have slipped under the public radar"

http://www.overpopulation.org/birthcon.html

"The median age at which US women have their last wanted child is 26.9 years and 75 percent of all women have all the children they want by age 30. Even a contraceptive method with an annual failure rate of one percent that is used from age 30 to age 45 will leave one woman in seven with an unintended pregnancy. In the U.S., There are not as many birth control choices as it may seem. Oral contraceptives are prescribed for women under age 30 because of cardiovascular side effects of the pill among women over age 35. Misinformation about possible health effects of the pill discourages many young women from using it. Because of side effects, IUDs today are being prescribed only for women in mutually monogamous relationships who have at least one child. Condom and diaphragm are less effective and are less desirable to young couples. American women often have long intervals during which they are not protected against the possibility of pregnancy. Over 50% of them have unintended pregnancies, and the U.S. has a higher rate of abortions than most other industrialized countries."

Lola - in response to your post 1.118: That is one of the precise reasons I am strongly pro-choice.

Justme: I agree that people need to do more to prevent unwanted pregnancies to begin with. Like you - I do what is necessary to prevent them. Both of my pregnancies were unplanned (birth control did fail, even though used properly). I chose to continue my pregnancies - and have two wonderful children as a result. However, had I chose to have an abortion either or both times - that would've been my choice. I agree that prohibiting abortion or reducing welfare doesn't actually help the situation. I am a very strong supporter of comprehensive sex education & accessible birth control. I also agree that welfare needs reform - it needs to be done in away that helps people get off welfare, not stay on it (which, unfortunately, the current system keeps people on welfare). While I am very pro-choice; I would love to see abortion be a rare choice.

Auteur: I don't know Guttmacher's religous views. He was an ob/gyn, author and leader in reproductive rights. He was also president of Planned Parenthood in the late 60s and early 70s. He was a strong proponent of birth control - even in the 1920s. This was spurred by witnessing a woman die from a botched, illegal abortion. He also said, "No woman is completely free unless she is wholly capable of controlling her fertility and...no baby receives its full birthright unless it is born gleefully wanted by its parents." When a report finds that many women who have abortions aren't using birth control properly, that doesn't mean it is a religious fanatic report - it's simply the way the data came out. To me, that says more education is needed. Of course, educating a patient regarding any medication, medical condition, etc. requires patient compliance. Patient compliance is affected by everything from financial ability to pay for the medication, personality of the patient, literacy levels, language barriers, did they actually understand the instructions, did the physician communicate clearly with the patient, etc., etc.

Auteur - I'd rather irresponsible women get abortions than irresponsible women like Michelle Duggar keep popping them out like clowns at a circus.

Lol you have my vote there!! The crappy part is that type doesn't really care enough about consequences to the child to do something like abort.

Lola, No disrespect intended but I don't entirely trust alternet. I've seen some rather "interesting" articles from that site lol. The info you provided about the reasons (access, etc) I think are dead on and what is frustrating is that it would not really be rocket science for our society to fix that problem. So many abortions could so easily be prevented! I'm not entirely sure about the lack of good options referred to. We do have a list of options. Of course there are side effects to be considered but I don't think that is our biggest issue. I think the challenge is availability and education.

While I am very pro-choice; I would love to see abortion be a rare choice.

And Summer nails it perfectly!! :)