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WERDOOMED

I never know what to say in times like this...
Articles Posted: 240  Links Seeded: 60
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Milk - Does a body no good.

Thu Jul 1, 2010 11:09 AM EDT
health, pregnancy, diabetes, baby, nutrition, production, iron, milk, bones, cows, calcium, mammals, health-problems, lactation, unnatural
By weRdoomed

Live Poll

Milk is...

View Results
  • 104114
    Healthy, I don't care about the article's data
    18%
  • 104115
    Healthy, there's more to it than the article says
    38%
  • 104116
    Probably Unhealthy, but I drink it anyway
    13%
  • 104117
    Unhealthy, but I drink it anyway
    10%
  • 104118
    Unhealthy, I don't drink it
    13%
  • 104119
    Good thing I hate milk!
    10%

VoteTotal Votes: 40

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A bowl of sugary cereal and ice cold milk. Part of a complete (American) breakfast!

To clarify, I enjoy milk, cheese, and icecream. I am not lactose intolerant (as far as I can tell) and I actually crave milk after a night of too-much drinking.

That aside, in recent years, I have greatly reduced my milk -- and milk-related product intake. Why?

Well, first, let me appeal to your logic:

"Milk’s main selling point is calcium, and milk-drinking is touted for building strong bones in children and preventing osteoporosis in older persons. However, clinical research shows that dairy products have little or no benefit for bones...Dairy products—including cheese, ice cream, milk, butter, and yogurt—contribute significant amounts of cholesterol and saturated fat to the diet...Prostate and breast cancers have been linked to consumption of dairy products, presumably related to increases in a compound called insulin-like growth factor (IGF-I)..." The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM), 2009

Damn! That sucks. If milk doesn't build strong bones, it sort of blows a hole in the reason my Mom was pushing it to me and my siblings as kids like it was an illegal drug.

"Dairy products contribute to a surprising number of health problems. They can impair a child's ability to absorb iron and in very small children can even cause subtle blood loss from the digestive tract. Combined with the fact that milk has virtually no iron of its own, the result is an increased risk of iron deficiency." - Benjamin Spock, MD, 1998

Iron deficiency!? Well, that would explain the hair loss and lack of energy...

"Cow's milk is a foreign substance that has pervaded every corner of our diets... Today there is little doubt that early and frequent feeding of dairy products leads to greatly increased incidence of childhood diabetes." - Linda Folden Palmer, DC, 2007

So it doesn't help your bones or teeth, it increases your risk for iron deficiency and childhood diabetes? The most compelling argument for me is that cow's milk is a foreign substance to the human body.

Think of it like this:

What produces milk of any kind? Mammals

When do mammals produce milk? When they are pregnant

Why do they produce milk when they are pregnant? To feed their baby

When do mammals stop producing milk? When the baby is old enough to eat adult food

So...from this we can deduce the following 1. Milk is produced by pregnant mammals 2. the milk is intended for the mammal's young offspring 3. babies STOP drinking milk once they are old enough to consume "adult food".

EXCEPT humans...who continue to dirnk milk when they are not only babies, but children, teenagers, and adults. Not only that -- they're not drinking the milk of their own species... they are drinking the milk of another species! And that milk isn't intended for them, it's for the offspring of tha mammal.

So, if that mammal (a cow) is not pregnant and producing milk for her baby (which humans would then be stealing) -- we have to find a way to get the cow to produce milk in an unnatural state.

No matter how you look at it: weak bones, weak teeth, iron deficiency, diabetes, drinking foreign milk, or the ethical treatment of animals ---

Why are we drinking milk again?

  • Enjoy this article? Help vote it up the 'Vine.

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Published to:

  • weRdoomed's Column, All of Newsvine
  • Groups: Centervine, Foodies!, Gut Check America, HealthVine, Invisible Viners, Poverty in America, Sacred Feminine Ideals, Slow Food Living, Soapbox
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  • Public Discussion (162)
weRdoomed

I'm not sure what to think, but that data seems to make sense and apresents a pretty reasonable argument against consuming cow milk.

  • 6 votes
#1 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 11:14 AM EDT
Megidoloan

I was lactose intolerant until my early teens, so I grew up not consuming milk or any milk products. This is gonna seem hypocritical because, like you, I do enjoy ice cream, cheese, and yogurt (I don't consume any other milk products), but considering the amount of people who can't digest it (especially in Asian countries, where lactose intolerance can be as high as 80% of the population), it kind of drives home the point that maybe we're not meant to drink it. Nevermind all the hormones and antibiotics that are in non-organic milk.

Again with the hypocrisy, but it just feels weird knowing that we're consuming the milk of another species. If they could make dairy-free products that didn't taste gross, I'd stop consuming milk altogether.

  • 4 votes
#1.1 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 11:37 AM EDT
Shannoscubie

it kind of drives home the point that maybe we're not meant to drink it.

Lactose intolerance in adult mammals is the norm. The ability to produce the enzyme required to break down lactose is actually a mutation in humans. So, yes: We're not really "meant" to drink it. Which makes me feel like not such a freak for being unable to eat ice cream or most cheeses. ;-)

  • 5 votes
#1.2 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 11:44 AM EDT
weRdoomed

Agreed - lactose intolerance really translates to being an "adult". Nothing wrong with that...you're nto a freak Shannoscubie! But I do feel sad that you cannot enjoy icecream every so often ;-)

  • 3 votes
#1.3 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 11:48 AM EDT
Shannoscubie

The last time I had real ice cream was about seven years ago. I thought I'd be all right if I took a handful of Lactaid first, but no. I wanted to die for hours afterward, so I just avoid it all now.

Tofutti makes some excellent non-dairy substitutes, including ice cream (better than Bryers IMO), sour cream, cream cheese...maybe some other stuff I can't recall. I still haven't found anything non-dairy that approximates cheddar cheese and doesn't taste like something died in my mouth a week earlier.

  • 4 votes
#1.4 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 11:59 AM EDT
Megidoloan

Shannoscubie, thanks for the info about Tofutti. I'm always leery of trying dairy substitutes - I used to have ice cream made from rice milk when I was younger, and while it wasn't bad, it was nothing like regular ice cream. I've also tried lots of meat substitutes and found those nasty, as well. That and I hate to waste food if I buy it and end up not liking it.

But I'll be sure to give those a try!

  • 2 votes
#1.5 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 12:01 PM EDT
Checkmate-983933

It may be what kind of milk is used in cheese, ice cream, etc. I had the same problem.

There was a comparison between breast milk and cow's milk a few years ago. Cows milk was higher in protein, lower in fat (that shocked me), and was higher of some other minerals than breast milk and interestingly enough, it had a little less sugar than breast milk.

  • 2 votes
#1.6 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 12:09 PM EDT
weRdoomed

There was a comparison between breast milk and cow's milk a few years ago.

Presumably, what cow's produce is ideal for a calf ... and what a human produces is ideal for... well...a human.

Maybe we need to start making cheese and icecream with human breast milk?

  • 7 votes
#1.7 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 12:12 PM EDT
Megidoloan

Checkmate, I've read a book called The Crazy Makers that had a very in-depth analysis of the nutrients and minerals in cow's milk versus human breastmilk. It was pretty fascinating. I really recommend that people read it, as the book discusses how so many of our health problems are caused by the additives and chemicals in our food.

But I have to say, if human milk is ever used in food, I'll never touch it. Something about that just squicks me out. Makes no sense, but neither do I, sometimes. XD

  • 5 votes
#1.8 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 12:20 PM EDT
Checkmate-983933

Thing is, you would have to monitor what mother's drink in order to get healthy breast milk. A cow, on the other hand, has grass and grain. They are easier to monitor and they also can't lie (I knew someone who was smoking while pregnant and people told her to quit. Well, when she gave birth to a tiny baby, she denied that she smoked during her pregnancy. Cows can't lie. Humans can).

  • 3 votes
#1.9 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 12:23 PM EDT
weRdoomed

But the humans raising the cows can lie -- about what they are injecting into those cows to get them to produce so much milk.

And that grass and those grains? What kind of pesticides and fertilizer were used in them?

  • 7 votes
#1.10 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 12:25 PM EDT
Megidoloan

Cows aren't meant to eat grain, either. They're designed to eat grass. Grain is just cheap and fattens them up faster so the meat industry can get more profits.

  • 9 votes
#1.11 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 12:27 PM EDT
Checkmate-983933

That is also true.

weRdoomed, the same thing can be said about the fruit and vegetables that you eat. All because it says organic, doesn't mean it is pesticide-free. If a woman lies about not smoking while pregnant, is she fined? No. If a farmer lies about giving hormones to cow, he is fined.

I support cows eating grass and know a few farmers who do this.

  • 5 votes
#1.12 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 1:11 PM EDT
sunnybunny1269

But the humans raising the cows can lie -- about what they are injecting into those cows to get them to produce so much milk.

Bull sperm. But personally I think it's pretty sick. I think they should go back to letting the bulls do it the old fashioned way.

  • 1 vote
#1.13 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 2:19 PM EDT
Checkmate-983933

The only reason why some farmers use bull sperm injections (which is extremely disgusting because one of the methods requires you to wear a glove that covers your arm, hold a swab with the sperm, and stick you arm into the cow's vagina), is that it is cheaper. Some farmers overprice when renting a bull.

  • 1 vote
#1.14 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 2:32 PM EDT
Megidoloan

I heard that one of the reasons is that the mother cows are so weak from their bones being depleted of calcium and other minerals from the constant milking that being mounted would injure them. I know that factory farms "milk" bulls by having them mount neutered bulls because the females are too weak. It's so messed up.

  • 4 votes
#1.15 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 2:53 PM EDT
Andrew-1162039

Milk is a vitamin rich liquid, which also has protein, and natural sugars. Despite the above contention about the usefulness of calcium in milk, their is dispute regarding this. Most studies show the calcium in milk is absorbed more than that in many vegetables, though not as useful as some other sources like broccoli or kale (frankly I'd rather drink milk than a kale shake). Are there down sides? Sure, lots of them have already been listed, but it's still a Hell of a lot better than a pepsi, kool-aid, or about 90% of the other liquids you or your kids are likely to knock down with a meal.

For those of us who sit around in an office all day, it's also a great source for Vitamin-D. Should milk be the staple of your diet? Hardly, but, like most things, it has its place.

  • 11 votes
#1.16 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 2:54 PM EDT
iloveyouall

weR- I have just started reading about bovine growth hormone (rBGH). Bovine growth hormone is illegal in almost every first world country.

It is legal in America, produced by Monsanto, and has a ton of negative effects on cows including increased risk of mastitis. The studies about it's effects on humans aren't concrete. Canada has made it illegal based on the harm it causes to cows alone.

Thanks for the article! I am not (always a) vegan but I do wish that people would consider the sources for their food and the suffering that it causes to animals.

  • 3 votes
#1.17 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 4:47 PM EDT
beej mcl

sorry, but your statements concerning what is good or bad for anyone has lost all its credibility with this statement you made.

To clarify, I enjoy milk, cheese, and icecream. I am not lactose intolerant (as far as I can tell) and I actually crave milk after a night of too-much drinking.

  • 1 vote
#1.18 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 4:56 PM EDT
weRdoomed

Wow, beej mcl, never heard of a joke?

  • 1 vote
#1.19 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 5:09 PM EDT
beej mcl

sorry but i sure didn't sound like one, back in my heavy drinking days milk was just the thing for me for a quick fix.

  • 1 vote
#1.20 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 5:11 PM EDT
weRdoomed

Yea, I was remembering a time from college when someone told me that was their cure-all. I, myself, am not much of a drinker.

  • 1 vote
#1.21 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 5:13 PM EDT
beej mcl

the way i saw the statement, you were presenting yourself as being a heavy drinker at present. i am still a huge milk drinker and still healthy as a horse at 61. i'll go back and give your article another chance then and apologize for my misunderstanding of your intent.

  • 1 vote
#1.22 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 5:18 PM EDT
beej mcl

sorry, but i disagree with your viewpoint concerning the health benefits or lack therof concerning milk.

btw, this statement

"When do mammals produce milk? When they are pregnant"

is totally wrong, while the cow is pregnant they stop producing milk.

    #1.23 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 5:27 PM EDT
    weRdoomed

    "When do mammals produce milk? When they are pregnant"

    is totally wrong, while the cow is pregnant they stop producing milk.

    Well, I am not a biologist. But I believe you are splitting hairs as lactation is clearly associated with pregnancy. Perhaps they do not occur at the same time, but they are directly related.

    • 3 votes
    #1.24 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 5:32 PM EDT
    MrFrost

    Truthfully, I like a nice cold glass of milk, but let me stress...COLD. I mean, I have some old heavy, thick beer mugs I keep in the freezer...I'll fill one with milk, and pound it down.. That I can handle.. If it is in the least warm, forget it...pass.

    Good article Dear..:)

    • 1 vote
    #1.25 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 5:44 PM EDT
    beej mcl

    lactation follows pregnancy, the fluid that leaks and is present prior to birth is called colostrum.

    • 3 votes
    #1.26 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 5:47 PM EDT
    weRdoomed

    Right, beej, but lactation will not occur without pregnancy.

    • 3 votes
    #1.27 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 7:33 PM EDT
    beej mcl

    it follows pregnancy, a cow will not freshen until after the birth.

    • 2 votes
    #1.28 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 7:38 PM EDT
    Mark in Worcester

    Milk bought in grocery stores is little more than poison. It's filled with oxidized cholesterol and is a dead product that has had all life cooked out of it. Raw milk on the other hand is a wonderful living source of nutrition, and something that even most "lactose intolerant" folks can enjoy. Granted, most people are squeamish when it comes to raw milk because they've been taught all their lives that milk must be pasteurized to be safe. This simply is not true. When you drink raw milk, you're drinking milk from a controlled, local source. Much easier to keep things safe. When you drink factory milk from grocery stores, you're consuming a dead product sourced from hundreds of thousands of cows from all over the country.

    • 7 votes
    #1.29 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 8:50 AM EDT
    Jim Helbig

    Maybe we need to start making cheese and icecream with human breast milk?

    Let me be the first to submit my application to be a "squeezer".

    • 6 votes
    #1.30 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 12:02 PM EDT
    CL1

    Can't comment on the "sqeezer" issue - but as for continuing with human breast milk in food products, I think that would be a bad idea for the same [potential] reason that cow's milk is: it was designed for rapid growth, not continued sustenance.

    • 4 votes
    #1.31 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 1:58 PM EDT
    Mark in Worcester

    Milk was not designed, nor does it promote, rapid growth. It does however promote brain growth and nervous system development. But it is not breast milk (human or cow) that causes babies (or calves) to grow quickly. That is a function of genetics. Milk in its natural form is perfectly healthy for adults to consume.

      #1.32 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 8:26 PM EDT
      CL1

      Cow's milk was 'designed' by nature to turn a calf into a mature 'heavy-weight' in a 'relatively' short time-frame. Breast milk which is 40-50% fat was 'designed' by nature to aid develop and weight-gain, and provide immunities in a 'relatively' short time-frame.

      • 5 votes
      #1.33 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 10:17 PM EDT
      OomYaaqub

      [[Milk in its natural form is perfectly healthy for adults to consume]]

      What are you basing this on? We certainly didn't evolve drinking the milk of any animal, not even our mama's past the normal age of weaning (probably around age four in those days.) Milk is high in fat, low in iron, and can't possibly be good for adults who have already done our growing. BTW, genetics cannot control growth or anything else all by itself. All genes do is code for amino acids to come together in a particular sequence (the building block of proteins.) Where do you get the amino acids in the first place if not from your diet? This is one reason that Japanese children born after WWII tended to be a lot taller than their parents; obviously their genes didn't change, but their diets did. There are all sorts of epigenetic factors that control how genes are actually expressed; another way of saying that phenotype and genotype aren't the same thing. The whole "nature vs. nurture" debate was based on an utterly false dichotomy that no longer exists today.

      • 3 votes
      #1.34 - Sat Jul 3, 2010 1:34 AM EDT
      CL1

      1.33, ..oops, development, not "develop."

      Oom Yaaqub --- nice post; I agree with everything you said.

      • 1 vote
      #1.35 - Sat Jul 3, 2010 2:11 AM EDT
      CL1

      Oom Yaaqub ---

      What's your opinion of those that consume dairy products for digestive culture (ie, yogurt)?

      Do you think we need to supplement those bacteria?

        #1.36 - Sat Jul 3, 2010 5:22 PM EDT
        OomYaaqub

        I think that yogurt is better than milk for reasons others here have already stated. In a world where some people live on Doritos and beer, who am I to say don't eat yogurt? I think we can live without it, though. After all, there are entire cultures (no pun intended) who never eat yogurt or any other dairy product. The Chinese seem to do okay. There might be special health problems that would require yogurt or some other supplement.

          #1.37 - Sat Jul 3, 2010 5:37 PM EDT
          CL1

          Thanks for commenting. ..Just wanted to read your opinion. :) I missed any other replies on the subject. That's Ok... opinion is all it can be.

            #1.38 - Sat Jul 3, 2010 5:43 PM EDT
            Reply
            SansSerif

            i do like me some cheese. However, it's a treat... but milk itself is N A S T Y. ugh. I buy the bare minimum needed for cooking. i don't understand families that go through gallons of the stuff unless there is some major dietary need for the calories.

            • 1 vote
            #2 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 11:30 AM EDT
            Megidoloan

            Milk itself IS really gross! Like I said in my other post, I grew up lactose-intolerant (I can have milk products now), so I never drank it until my early teens. I had plain milk once in my life. I was getting a glass of juice and someone poured a glass of milk and put it on the counter next to my juice. Since I didn't bother turning the light on in the kitchen, I grabbed the wrong glass and drank the milk. I immediately gagged and spit it out. It was so disgusting! My brother can drink gallons of the stuff. I don't get it. Ewwwwwww.

            Nothing against people that do like milk. I just think it's gross.

            • 1 vote
            #2.1 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 11:42 AM EDT
            trm2008

            I like my milk with vodka and kahlua. :-)

            • 9 votes
            #2.2 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 4:19 PM EDT
            weRdoomed

            Now you're on to something, trm!

            • 1 vote
            #2.3 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 4:22 PM EDT
            Tex-988483

            trm:

            Yes indeed. Mmmmboyhowdy. The Lebowski.

            • 2 votes
            #2.4 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 4:30 PM EDT
            believer-369603

            Holy Roasted Goobers, Tex, it's good to see ya. You ok? Where ya been? Zip me an e-mail and fill me in. I was about to form a search and rescue posse. Six month time limit, ya know?

            (Sorry, Doomed. Got carried away.)

            • 3 votes
            #2.5 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 4:41 PM EDT
            weRdoomed

            Hey, believer, if the situation calls for it - do it.

            • 1 vote
            #2.6 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 4:47 PM EDT
            believer-369603

            Tex was among the missing.....and missed. happy to see him back.

            • 2 votes
            #2.7 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 5:00 PM EDT
            MrFrost

            Milk itself IS really gross!

            I prefer it from the tap..

              #2.8 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 5:41 PM EDT
              SansSerif

              Okay, yeah. With kahlua might be one of my very few exceptions. But hey, the dude abides.

              • 2 votes
              #2.9 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 6:13 PM EDT
              MrFrost

              I wanna know who looked at a cows utter and said, "I am going to suck on that and drink whatever comes out". Sick pups in the world...

              • 2 votes
              #2.10 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 6:15 PM EDT
              Ubergato

              I wanna know who looked at a cows utter and said, "I am going to suck on that and drink whatever comes out". Sick pups in the world...

              Could be the same guy that opened the first oyster and thought ...Man I bet that would be tasty eaten raw!! :) Or maybe it was the guy that saw an egg pop out of a bird and said MMMM dinner!! :)

              • 4 votes
              #2.11 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 6:23 PM EDT
              Atsidi

              Hunger can make a person very creative.

              • 2 votes
              #2.12 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 6:26 PM EDT
              Shannoscubie

              Hunger can make a person very creative.

              That's how I feel about escargot. I try to be open-minded but to me it's just like eating slugs from a shell. With garlic sauce.

              I'd have to be really, really hungry.

              • 1 vote
              #2.13 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 7:33 PM EDT
              Tex-988483

              In the spirit of full disclosure I gotta admit that a large cold glass of Bovine Mucus and a sack o cookies is high on my list of the mighty fine things that life offers.......

              It is sad that the finest things in life tend towards self destruction. What the heck though.....

              • 2 votes
              #2.14 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 10:57 PM EDT
              Decurion_505

              Escargot in butter? I love 'em! Milk and cookies, hell yeah! CHEESE!

                #2.15 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 11:58 PM EDT
                CL1

                "It is sad that the finest things in life tend towards self destruction" --Lol, seems so. :(

                Well, I drink milk, and too much iron is toxic anyway, so I don't worry about absorption issues. Oddly, some milk doesn't bother me, but most other dairy products do, so must be lactose intolerant.

                  #2.16 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 1:38 AM EDT
                  trm2008

                  Okay, yeah. With kahlua might be one of my very few exceptions

                  Throw in a little frangelico or amaretto--mmm mmm good!

                  • 2 votes
                  #2.17 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 8:33 AM EDT
                  Reply
                  Checkmate-983933

                  Whoa, hold it! Not PCRM! Don't believe this group. They are linked with animal rights. Check out some of their claims and some of their 'members.' Majority of themselves call themselves doctors/physicians and they don't have a doctrate degree.

                  When I was younger, I had low calcium and the doctor told me to take calcium pills, twice a day (the 2 are supposed to make up the average calcium requirement for an adult). A year later, no sign of improvement. I stopped taking the pills. At the time, I only knew of whole milk and could only drink a glass a week (lactose intolerant, I guess). However, I found out about 2% and I am able to drink a glass every day. And that is what I did. A year later and my calcium levels improved. Milk did it, not calcium pills. The only thing that I changed to my diet was adding milk every day.

                  Now, will that work with everyone? No. Everyone's body is different. Certain things I can eat can make you sick or kill you.

                  Here's some other questions: children drinking milk and losing iron. . .what else are they eating and how much and how much milk are they drinking? Too much of anything isn't good for you.

                  • 9 votes
                  #3 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 11:41 AM EDT
                  weRdoomed

                  Thanks for the heads up, I had not heard of the group, but just because they are linked to animals rights doesn't mean they are wrong, right? =)

                  I'll look into them out of curiosity.

                  • 3 votes
                  #3.1 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 11:43 AM EDT
                  Megidoloan

                  I'm weird with milk, too. I grew up lactose intolerant, but grew out of it in my early teens. I can eat ice cream and cheese and be fine. Whipped cream will make me violently ill.

                  It's weird, too, because I have a lot of digestive problems and doctors always say to cut milk out first. But dairy products (especially yogurt - I should buy stock in Breyer's and Dannon) are one of the very few things I can eat and not get sick from. I can eat some ice cream but not a freakin' saltine?! It doesn't make any sense. The human body is weird.

                  • 2 votes
                  #3.2 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 11:47 AM EDT
                  weRdoomed

                  The human body is weird.

                  My grandma used to say that you are "mature" when you begin to realize that your body is not your friend.

                  • 2 votes
                  #3.3 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 11:49 AM EDT
                  Megidoloan

                  LOL, then I've been mature for a long time! XD

                  • 2 votes
                  #3.4 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 12:06 PM EDT
                  Checkmate-983933

                  "but just because they are linked to animals rights doesn't mean they are wrong, right? =)"

                  They are showing a bias and don't tell the whole story.

                  Earlier this year, they wanted hot dogs banned in school; said that hot dogs caused cancer. They even made a claim in NJ to sue hot dog manufacturers, wanting to put a warning label on hot dogs: May cause cancer. Yet, there was no evidence presented of a person getting cancer after consuming a hot dog(s). The case was thrown out. 2 things that PCRM ignored:

                  1. Too many hot dogs will make you sick. That is an obvious. Can it lead to death? Maybe, but too much water can kill you, too and doctors are constantly saying to drink a lot of water (btw, drinking 8 glasses of water a day? BS. Part of the article that first introduced that was cut out by editors to save space. I will go into it more if asked).

                  2. Carcinogens cause cancer. This is true. So, PCRM says that grilling a hot dog or any meat is bad, that you'll get cancer. . .but they don't say anything about grilling vegetables. Your grill is introducing carcinogens in food, via grilling. Vegetable, meat, doesn't matter: the carcinogens are there if you grill. But again: how many times do you eat grilled food?

                  PCRM gives only half the story and blames food instead of irresponsible people.

                  • 8 votes
                  #3.5 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 12:20 PM EDT
                  Megidoloan

                  Checkmate, seeing as my brother is still alive, it's impossible for hot dogs to kill you. XD Seriously, he eats two pots of them a day. It's unbelievable.

                  • 5 votes
                  #3.6 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 12:26 PM EDT
                  Checkmate-983933

                  Hot dogs are my favorite as well. I can eat an entire package in one day (if I am not eating anything else). However, I also wouldn't eat hot dogs for at least a month afterward.

                  Would you believe that there are idiot parents that also want hot dogs to have a label that says: warning: may cause choking hazard, because they lost a child who choked on a hot dog. More blame on the food and not the parents. Here's a brilliant idea! Cut up the hot dog into tiny portions for your 2 year old! God, freakin' idiots. When I was growing up, a girl died in school after choking on a hot dog. The media went nuts over it, trying to get the hot dog banned. I still remember the media showing the size of the hot dog piece that the girl choked on. It was over an inch long. No wonder she choked! She didn't take human-sized bites!

                  You can choke on anything. Babies choke on forumla, milk, and baby food. You don't see a choking hazard label on baby food, do you? Why? Because those parents have common sense!

                  • 5 votes
                  #3.7 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 1:21 PM EDT
                  Megidoloan

                  I don't eat hot dogs because I threw up after eating one when I was little, and I'm so deathly afraid of throwing up that I'll never touch one again. I'm kinda weird like that.

                  But it blows my mind that I, as someone without kids, can see that hot dogs are an obvious choking hazard and need to be cut up, but so many parents can't. And teach your kids how to CHEW, for god's sake! Eating isn't a race.

                  And I choke on my freakin' spit. I'm special that way. XD

                  • 1 vote
                  #3.8 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 1:46 PM EDT
                  Checkmate-983933

                  Not weird, Megi. My friend had a friend that won't drink soda unless it is entirely flat. When he was younger, someone made him laugh while was drinking soda and it came out his nose. However, at the same time, he also choked on it and the burning sensation in his nose didn't help. Since then, he only drinks soda if it is flat because he is afriad he will choke and have that feeling again.

                  • 3 votes
                  #3.9 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 2:54 PM EDT
                  beej mcl

                  checkmate, read your post #3 and noticed the fact that they put you on a calcium supplement. in order for the calcium to be absorbed into your system, vitamin d must accompany the calcium.

                  • 2 votes
                  #3.10 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 6:23 PM EDT
                  OomYaaqub

                  [[I wanna know who looked at a cows utter and said, "I am going to suck on that and drink whatever comes out". Sick pups in the world...]]

                  I think it's far more likely that the first dairy animals were sheep or goats. They were already domesticated for meat or fiber, right? Maybe some woman's breast milk failed and rather than see her baby starve, she got the brilliant idea to milk her ewe, who had just lambed. Eventually, perhaps in a time of famine, someone decided that it would be a reasonable food for older children and adults.

                  • 1 vote
                  #3.11 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 3:02 AM EDT
                  Megidoloan

                  [[I wanna know who looked at a cows utter and said, "I am going to suck on that and drink whatever comes out". Sick pups in the world...]]

                  Growing up in cow country, I've seen this first hand. A few times. Weeeeeeird.

                  • 1 vote
                  #3.12 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 4:21 AM EDT
                  CL1

                  I agree!

                    #3.13 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 5:02 AM EDT
                    weRdoomed

                    OomYaaqub - Awesome hypothesis! Love it!

                      #3.14 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 8:53 AM EDT
                      Checkmate-983933

                      checkmate, read your post #3 and noticed the fact that they put you on a calcium supplement. in order for the calcium to be absorbed into your system, vitamin d must accompany the calcium.

                      Which is in milk. Meanwhile, I wasn't drinking any milk at the time (if anything, 1 glass every few months), before and after that doctor's visit. A year later, no improvement.

                      • 1 vote
                      #3.15 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 9:22 AM EDT
                      Reply
                      RACHEL1-933952

                      I have recently become lactose intolerant..cruel trick of nature as I love milk, cheese, cottage cheese, sour cream and yogurt!

                      I have found a lactose free milk that tastes good and I enjoy. And, goat's milk and goat cheese are just fine on my system!

                      Never have been a fan of ice cream, tho...

                      • 6 votes
                      Reply#4 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 1:38 PM EDT
                      weRdoomed

                      Not a fan of icecream? Damn. I wish that was the case for me. Sometimes I just wanna have a sundae. =P

                      • 4 votes
                      #4.1 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 1:40 PM EDT
                      RACHEL1-933952

                      I'm more a savory type! :-)

                      • 3 votes
                      #4.2 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 2:20 PM EDT
                      Shannoscubie

                      BTW, the effects of even the same dairy product can vary even with the same person. I remember reading quite some time ago that stress levels can affect the production of the enzyme the body needs to break down the lactose.

                      • 6 votes
                      #4.3 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 2:38 PM EDT
                      RACHEL1-933952

                      Shannoscubie- I would agree with that, except I have very limited stress in my life...my problem started with menopause...I believe body chemistry changes have more to do with it!

                      • 4 votes
                      #4.4 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 2:45 PM EDT
                      Shannoscubie

                      I have very limited stress in my life...

                      Well, that's a rare thing to hear these days! I'm happy for you! :-)

                      • 5 votes
                      #4.5 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 2:48 PM EDT
                      RACHEL1-933952

                      Thanks! It wasn't always like that...so, I'm very happy for me too! ;-)

                      • 4 votes
                      #4.6 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 2:51 PM EDT
                      Megidoloan

                      Shannoscubie, that's definitely true. Even though I can have milk products now, whipped cream will make me very sick. But I can eat all the ice cream and cheese I want and be perfectly fine. It's just something with that whipped cream that doesn't agree with me.

                      • 1 vote
                      #4.7 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 2:55 PM EDT
                      Reply
                      Ubergato

                      Well to each his own I say. Personally I drink between a quart to half a gallon of skim milk every single day and have done so since I was a child. I am now 62 and still enjoy my milk very much. My mother now at 90 years old suffers from osteoporosis which started at age 50. She is bent over at nearly a right angle now and was never a milk drinker. I on the other hand have zero signs of osteoporosis, excellent cholesterol and low blood pressure. When I go for long periods without milk, I feel sluggish and tired. I enjoy it and believe that it is good for me. While I understand that many are lactose intolerant or cannot stand the taste, I am not going to jump on board that bandwagon. :) I love it! *smiles at you with a milky mustache*

                      • 8 votes
                      Reply#5 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 1:57 PM EDT
                      weRdoomed

                      Well, if it ain't broke - don't fix it I say!!

                      • 4 votes
                      #5.1 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 2:02 PM EDT
                      Megidoloan

                      And that's okay! People like different things.

                      • 3 votes
                      #5.2 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 3:40 PM EDT
                      Reply
                      Little Sure Shot

                      I like milk and will continue to drink it. Save the studies and the stats and the scare tactics for sheeple.

                      I.....LIKE....MILK!

                      • 3 votes
                      Reply#6 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 2:55 PM EDT
                      weRdoomed

                      I'm glad you enjoy your milk...as do I. But I think it would be silly to ignore all studies at the risk of being a "sheeple".

                      Ignoring statistics isn't independent thinking - it's ignorant. You don't have to agree with them, but knowing them and understanding them - then deciding for yourself makes you an independent thinker.

                      • 4 votes
                      #6.1 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 2:58 PM EDT
                      sunnybunny1269

                      Other studies contradict them though, so you can choose which ones to believe.

                      http://www.organicfacts.net/health-benefits/animal-product/health-benefits-of-milk.html

                      http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=130

                      http://www.raw-milk-facts.com/raw_milk_health_benefits.html

                      • 5 votes
                      #6.2 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 3:12 PM EDT
                      weRdoomed

                      Totally agree, sunnybunny1269.

                      You can always find evidence for both sides. I like to see both sides and decide for myself. But, in general, I like to lean on the side of caution.

                      • 1 vote
                      #6.3 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 3:25 PM EDT
                      Megidoloan

                      WeRdoomed, I agree with your initial comment. Learning about what we're eating (or not eating) doesn't make us "sheeple." It's just information. Hell, I know how horrible diet soda is, but I'll never be able to give up my Diet Pepsi. I like it, and that's okay. I'm a live-and-let-live kind of person. But it's stupid to insult someone who's just presenting information. I haven't seen anyone passing judgment on milk-drinkers in this thread. Just sharing information.

                      • 3 votes
                      #6.4 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 3:29 PM EDT
                      Reply
                      Freedom Writer-801740

                      The only thing I really have against these articles is they come out all the time contradicting each other. The bottom line here is everything in moderation. but unfortunately our society has lost comprehnsion of what that really means.

                      • 4 votes
                      Reply#7 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 3:34 PM EDT
                      weRdoomed

                      Everything in moderation? What about arsenic? lol, just teasing. I agree. The vast majority of foods/beverages can be enjoyed in moderation.

                      More importantly, foods/beverages we know to be healthy should be consumed more than the ones we're not so sure about or know are unhealthy. That's the best fit.

                      But, at the end of the day, Americans aren't known for moderation. We are full speed ahead in all things - good and bad!

                      • 2 votes
                      #7.1 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 3:44 PM EDT
                      Freedom Writer-801740

                      Everything in moderation? What about arsenic

                      You have a point there, but I might not necessarily be against it, depending on who is going to be taking it, I got a list of people that could benefit from that, or maybe I should say I would benefit from that.

                      And Yes you are right the healthy stuff should be consumed more, but with so many contradicting articles about what is healthy for us its hard to really know what that even means anymore.

                      And yes the big American butt, I have always said though that I would rather be fat and happy here in America than starving with flies on my face in a third world country.

                      • 4 votes
                      #7.2 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 3:57 PM EDT
                      OomYaaqub

                      Rasputin took small doses of arsenic on a regular basis, thinking that if anyone tried to poison him, he'd be immune. Actually we ALL take in minute amounts of arsenic. We've all eaten insects unwittingly too--there's a small but unavoidable number of mealworms and the like in your oatmeal and other cereals. Dosage is always key.

                      • 1 vote
                      #7.3 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 3:05 AM EDT
                      weRdoomed

                      True - I realize we all eat bugs, mold, feces, and arsenic in small amounts, but that doesn't mean it should be recommended =)

                      • 1 vote
                      #7.4 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 8:55 AM EDT
                      Checkmate-983933

                      Arsenic is in the water supply in Garfiend, NJ. That and a cancer-causing agent (the same stuff mentioned in the movie Erin Brokovich).

                      • 1 vote
                      #7.5 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 9:25 AM EDT
                      weRdoomed

                      I am from NJ and was very sad to hear recently that radiation contaminated water leaked from the Lacey Township Nuclear Powerplant had reached the Pinelands Aquifer. =(

                      • 2 votes
                      #7.6 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 9:30 AM EDT
                      kaviaq

                      Arsenic is in the water supply in Garfiend, NJ.

                      DO you mean Garfield?? I live one town over. Our last water report was good, not sure if we get water from the same supplier as Garfield.

                      • 1 vote
                      #7.7 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 3:33 PM EDT
                      OomYaaqub

                      [[True - I realize we all eat bugs, mold, feces, and arsenic in small amounts, but that doesn't mean it should be recommended =)]]

                      Oh, I don't know. Maybe it's all part of developing the immune system. Some believe that people who grow up in ultra clean houses, who aren't allowed to play in the dirt or have pets, etc., are especially prone to allergies in later life. My kids will never have this problem, LOL! BTW, insects are supposed to be a wonderful source of high quality protein, and they're eaten in many cultures.

                      • 2 votes
                      #7.8 - Sat Jul 3, 2010 1:41 AM EDT
                      Checkmate-983933

                      DO you mean Garfield?? I live one town over. Our last water report was good, not sure if we get water from the same supplier as Garfield.

                      Lodi or Passaic County?

                        #7.9 - Sat Jul 3, 2010 4:49 PM EDT
                        kaviaq

                        Lodi

                          #7.10 - Sat Jul 3, 2010 5:55 PM EDT
                          Reply
                          Bryan-684618

                          Interesting Read. Makes good sense.

                          But I smoke, I drink beer and I eat fast food. I'm gonna go ahead put a nice big glass of ice cold milk pretty far down on my "things you shouldn't do to your body" list. ;-)

                          • 4 votes
                          Reply#8 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 4:41 PM EDT
                          weRdoomed

                          Yes, sounds like you have bigger fish to fry =P

                          • 1 vote
                          #8.1 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 4:48 PM EDT
                          Reply
                          Solidarity Nite

                          a lot of whats bad about milk is caused by pasteurisation. the process destroyes enzymes most of the vitamin reduces minerals destroys good bacteria. healthy raw milk is good for you esp goats and sheeps milk. over the ages some peoples kept animals for their milk and evolved to be able to digest this wholesome food. processed foods in general are bad for us.

                          real milk

                          • 3 votes
                          Reply#9 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 5:07 PM EDT
                          MartinEZ

                          Update:

                          Year: 2011

                          Milk is the miracle food! Everyone must drink it by the gallon!

                          I'm done with all these food studies. Every year the consensus changes. I love milk and drink tons of it. End of story.

                          • 2 votes
                          Reply#10 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 5:16 PM EDT
                          weRdoomed

                          There will always be a debate. This is not a seed. It's my own article. I drink milk, I just have heard things against drinking milk so I decided to look into it.

                          People should educate themselves and then make a decision that is best for them. End of story.

                          • 1 vote
                          #10.1 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 5:19 PM EDT
                          Checkmate-983933

                          Agreed, Martin. Leave my freakin' eggs alone! Every other year: eggs bad, eggs good, eggs bad, eggs good, repeat.

                          Garlic is healthy for you then years later it was found that it does nothing for you!

                          Orange juice! Healthy. . .but then they found out that the acid eats away your teeth.

                          It never ends. And if it isn't that it's 'everything causes cancer.' I'm waiting for a scientist, sometime, somewhere, to create a study and link bread to cancer and say that bread causes cancer.

                          • 2 votes
                          #10.2 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 9:30 AM EDT
                          MartinEZ

                          I'm waiting for a scientist, sometime, somewhere, to create a study and link bread to cancer and say that bread causes cancer.

                          LOL

                          Here you have it!

                          • 1 vote
                          #10.3 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 2:22 PM EDT
                          Checkmate-983933

                          The researchers from the Institute of Pharmacological Research in Milan, Italy studied more than 2300 Italians - 767 who had the disease and 1534 who did not - and asked them detailed information about their diet in the previous two years.
                          The scientists discovered a clear link between eating lots of bread and the risk of getting the cancer.

                          *facepalm*

                          • 2 votes
                          #10.4 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 3:17 PM EDT
                          weRdoomed

                          LOL. I am laughing so hard right now... the whole office is looking at me!!

                          • 1 vote
                          #10.5 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 3:18 PM EDT
                          Checkmate-983933

                          I'm afraid to say something else because God knows there is another freakin' scientist that will or has come up with a study for it:

                          Breathing causes cancer.

                          I already know water causes cancer because in Garfield, NJ, we have water that has that chemical (same in Erin Brokovich movie that is mentioned) and it is higher than what is considered safe or average. And the water company can't do a thing because Garfield is too polluted (border has/had industry that used to dump chemicals, etc. into the river and ground years before the EPA condemned the act). Our river is so polluted that there are signs that state: eating a softshell crab from this river increases your chance of getting cancer by 100% (and this makes sense if you know anything about crabs and filter feeders). One of the worst chemicals in the river is the chemical remnants of a chemical used for Agent Orange (Vietnam, anyone?), which came from a factory in Newark (it is unknown if the spill was accidental or not).

                          Screw water! Drink milk! lol

                            #10.6 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 3:38 PM EDT
                            CL1

                            " Screw water! Drink milk!" --- might as well - that's why I do! ;)

                              #10.7 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 3:47 PM EDT
                              Atsidi

                              Beer.

                                #10.8 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 3:54 PM EDT
                                CL1

                                Asidi - I wish I could. I do the next best thing and cook with it.

                                  #10.9 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 4:21 PM EDT
                                  Atsidi

                                  We never use water on any kind of pot roast or in the dutch oven. My Dr. is a bit upset with me over the beer thing, but then I am a little upset over the side effects of the meds he put me on for cholesterol too, I guess it all works out. He would probably like it if I switched to milk or soda. Not gonna happen.

                                    #10.10 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 5:17 PM EDT
                                    CL1

                                    " I guess it all works out." --- Lol. ...turn about is fair play, huh...hahaha! Of course there is also the prospect of drug interaction to be considered. And imo, you can't use what happens to - or what works for - someone else as a guide (not suggesting you do - just sayin'). Anyway, a little chromium (in beer) never hurt anyone .. I hope! ..Enjoy.

                                      #10.11 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 5:45 PM EDT
                                      OomYaaqub

                                      The gluten in regular bread can most certainly cause cancer if you have celiac disease. Guess what? The symptoms of celiac disease are so varied that many people are never diagnosed. If you have a lot of digestive problems, you could be celiac. Gluten may also be a factor in such things as autism and even schizophrenia. You can make gluten-free bread, but the ingredients aren't cheap.

                                      There are whole cultures that don't do dairy (that's why there's no Chinese cheeses) and that downplay wheat.

                                        #10.12 - Sat Jul 3, 2010 1:45 AM EDT
                                        Reply
                                        rls8r

                                        I like milk. I read this article, and others, that paint a pretty bleak picture for milk if we're drinking it thinking it's some sort of panacea. I don't - I don't think about it. I just enjoy the taste of milk and other dairy products. I'm not lactose intolerant, I have most of my teeth (except those that were deliberately pulled back when I had braces), I just had a physical and my cholesterol (HDL and LDL) put me in the lowest risk range, iron's good, I'm not diabetic. It seems like I'm weathering the storm alright. So - I'll continue to drink it until my body tells me to stop.

                                        In the immortal words of Taj Mahal: "The doctor said it'd kill me, but he didn't say when." and "Ain't nobody's business but my own."

                                        • 2 votes
                                        Reply#11 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 5:19 PM EDT
                                        weRdoomed

                                        In the immortal words of Taj Mahal: "The doctor said it'd kill me, but he didn't say when." and "Ain't nobody's business but my own."

                                        Absolutely right, but I like to have more information rather than less and then make an educated choice for myself. As my article states, I drink milk and eat dairy products.

                                        • 2 votes
                                        #11.1 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 5:22 PM EDT
                                        rls8r

                                        Yep - sounds reasonable. Well then - welcome to the club! Can I get you a tall, cool glass of milk (perhaps with some vodka and Kahlua)?

                                          #11.2 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 5:36 PM EDT
                                          kaviaq

                                          Ain't nobody's business but my own."

                                          Well, it might be the business of the cows who are enslaved, forcibly impregnated and have their offspring stolen from them the day they are born so they won't drink any of the cow's milk....y'know the milk the cow actually produces FOR its offspring?? Doesn't anyone ever consider THAT part??

                                          • 3 votes
                                          #11.3 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 9:06 PM EDT
                                          Reply
                                          Stu-4803409

                                          Its interesting from a survival standpoint, most of the early history of man was spent traveling and trying to find a reliable food source. Milk for all of its drawbacks is pretty high in many vitamins and it has a lot of fat and some protein content. Cheese is even better for traveling and for storage, providing a compact source of nutrition.

                                          It makes me wonder whether or not we are actually adapting to become more tolerant of it as a species as time goes on.

                                          The weird hormones and antibiotics added to it are another thing entirely (gross) and I strive to find milk from non hormone or antibiotic laced cows or dairies.

                                          • 2 votes
                                          Reply#12 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 5:23 PM EDT
                                          weRdoomed

                                          Do you suppose milk and cheese was available to man when we were still a nomad species? Did they have the skills to utilize milk and create cheese at that time?

                                          I am like you, I won't give up milk, but it doesn't hurt to try to find brands that are not using hormones and antibiotics if you can find it.

                                            #12.1 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 5:26 PM EDT
                                            Stu-4803409

                                            Well from what I have heard about cheese it was first noticed that storing milk in animal organs caused it to form cheese. I think that it was somewhat available, but a lot of the types of cheese we have today are made with a variety of processes, I think for a simple mozzarella they may have been able to create something like that.

                                            • 1 vote
                                            #12.2 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 5:38 PM EDT
                                            weRdoomed

                                            Ugh! I suddenly don't want to know anymore about cheese! =D

                                              #12.3 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 7:34 PM EDT
                                              Stu-4803409

                                              Rennet (pronounced /ˈrɛnɪt/) is a natural complex of enzymes produced in any mammalian stomach to digest the mother's milk, and is often used in the production of cheese. Rennet contains many enzymes, including a proteolytic enzyme (protease) that coagulates the milk, causing it to separate into solids (curds) and liquid (whey). The active enzyme in rennet is called chymosin or rennin (EC 3.4.23.4) but there are also other important enzymes in it, e.g., pepsin or lipase. There are non-animal sources for rennet that are suitable for vegetarian consumption.

                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rennet

                                                #12.4 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 9:01 PM EDT
                                                Reply
                                                Stu-4803409

                                                they are drinking the milk of another species! And that milk isn't intended for them, it's for the offspring of tha mammal.

                                                I'm gonna back away from that one.... Don't know how well selling human breast milk by the gallon is going to catch on.

                                                  Reply#13 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 5:25 PM EDT
                                                  Checkmate-983933

                                                  Women already donate breast milk to third world countries because women there are not lactating and can't exactly afford to buy milk/formula.

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  #13.1 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 9:32 AM EDT
                                                  weRdoomed

                                                  Women can also donate breast milk here in the USA to infants who have lost their mother during childbirth. It can also be donated to neo-natal intensive care units because they require a lot of breastmilk and a lot of mothers aren't producing it yet if they had the baby very prematurely.

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  #13.2 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 9:47 AM EDT
                                                  Stu-4803409

                                                  Well yeah but thats a bit different that buying a gallon of 'cream of helen' at the grocery store for your cereal.

                                                    #13.3 - Sat Jul 3, 2010 3:14 PM EDT
                                                    Atsidi

                                                    Maybe not, Helen is pretty hot, and sweet.

                                                      #13.4 - Sat Jul 3, 2010 3:30 PM EDT
                                                      Reply
                                                      CaptainKidd

                                                      Milk might not be the healthiest food choice because of calories, pasteurization, fat content, or some other reasons, but I guess that depends on the person and the quantity of milk consumed whether it is a problem or not.

                                                      However, as to some of the other issues, Milk is one of, if not the, most heavily regulated food products in the USA. The only thing that is allowed to be added to milk sold for human consumption is Vitamin D. Milk is tested for bacteria, solids, sediment on every pick up at the dairy farm, as well as for additives and water that could be used to "enhance" the amount of milk in the tank. Dairy farmers have been fined thousands of dollars for "watering their milk" to increase their sales. It is also tested for drug and antibiotic residue that can be passed through the cow and into the milk.

                                                      So, if that mammal (a cow) is not pregnant and producing milk for her baby (which humans would then be stealing) -- we have to find a way to get the cow to produce milk in an unnatural state.

                                                      Cows that are producing milk (or "Fresh" Cows) are cows that have given birth to calves. Dairy cows give birth to many more heifers than bull calves, so, after they are grown, this increases the number of cows that the Dairy has to milk.

                                                      The calves are allowed to nurse until the cows milk tests free of colustrum, (usually a week or so) and then the calves are removed from the cows and bottle fed with formula and with milk from cows that is still too high in colustrum to be used commercially.

                                                      Cows eventually will dry up, after several months, and then are pastured until time to breed them again, at which time the cycle starts over.

                                                      • 3 votes
                                                      Reply#14 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 5:40 PM EDT
                                                      weRdoomed

                                                      Lots of valuable information, thanks Captain!

                                                      • 2 votes
                                                      #14.1 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 7:35 PM EDT
                                                      CaptainKidd

                                                      You are welcome. We had a dalliance with dairy cattle and the dairy business back about 10 years ago, but we just could not make a go of it on the limited basis that we were on.

                                                      It's a business where you either have to go big, or go home. Small time Dairy Farmers are on the edge of bankruptcy pretty much all the time.

                                                      • 2 votes
                                                      #14.2 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 7:49 PM EDT
                                                      OomYaaqub

                                                      Wait a minute, CaptainKidd. How do the dairy farmers manage to get the sex ratio so favorably unbalanced, when in a state of nature they would produce an equal number of male and female offspring? Are you quite sure of that? I was under the impression that the males of dairy breeds are either killed immediately for hamburger or raised as veal (which is another horrible industry.)

                                                      I have a biology degree but I've been out of school and out of that field for many years. Still, it's impressive that they can do this, IF you're correct. Why aren't they using the same technology for humans? It would surely be less unethical than abortions performed merely because the child isn't the "right" sex.

                                                        #14.3 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 3:12 AM EDT
                                                        Checkmate-983933

                                                        Actually OomYaaqub, more females are born than males when it comes to any species, including humans. It's not always a 50/50

                                                        Not all males are used as veal or hamburger. Depending on the sire, the may be saved for future mating. Or they are sold after being 'fixed' as oxen to certain farmers (I know someone who has them).

                                                          #14.4 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 9:36 AM EDT
                                                          OomYaaqub

                                                          I realize there is a SLIGHT inbalance in the female's favor just because males are actually the weaker sex genetically, so fewer of them make it to birth; however the difference is small.

                                                          It's wonderful that oxen are still being used, but who besides the Amish and a few hippies actually has them anymore? I did read in Mother Earth News about an enterprising teen who sells organic milk to yuppies. If any male calves are born, she actually trains them under the saddle! She looked a bit silly riding her ox in the photo, English saddle, riding clothes and all, but perhaps it could catch on.

                                                          • 1 vote
                                                          #14.5 - Sat Jul 3, 2010 1:51 AM EDT
                                                          Checkmate-983933

                                                          Riding any cattle. . .very tricky to do.

                                                          People buy oxen to enter into pulling contests as well as obstacle course contest.

                                                          I still laugh at the farmer who said that he was getting his lawnmower to mow the front lawn and came out with one of his oxen, just tied it up and allowed it to graze. He was dead serious when he said it.

                                                            #14.6 - Sat Jul 3, 2010 4:52 PM EDT
                                                            OomYaaqub

                                                            Don't laugh. My lawnmowing system consists of two very large Flemish Giant rabbits. I'm a city girl, so my lawn is admittedly small. But they can be amazingly fast grazers, so much so that if I didn't supplement their feed I'd have a desert. Ask the Australians.

                                                            A plus is that I have the plushest roses on the block, and I don't have to do any fertilizing to get them that way.

                                                              #14.7 - Sat Jul 3, 2010 5:44 PM EDT
                                                              Reply
                                                              Atsidi

                                                              I grew up on fresh cows milk before the days of pesticides and hormones. The first time I ever tasted homogenised milk I thought it was the rottenest stuff I had ever tasted. Got used to it I guess, but anymore the only milk I useis in cooking something. Am told that goats milk is closest to human, don't really know. The milk you buy in the store now is a processed chemical, it won't sour like real milk will, it just rots, that should say something.

                                                              • 4 votes
                                                              Reply#15 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 5:42 PM EDT
                                                              believer-369603

                                                              I did not know that. But I'm like you, I use milk only for cooking. My coffee gets real cream, and the cats get water.

                                                              Just seems weird to drink something which gets excreted from an animal.....

                                                              • 2 votes
                                                              #15.1 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 6:03 PM EDT
                                                              weRdoomed

                                                              Good point, Atsidi. Milk lasts forever these days. They come with expiration dates a month later!!

                                                              • 1 vote
                                                              #15.2 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 7:36 PM EDT
                                                              Checkmate-983933

                                                              . . .And you eat fruits and vegetables that are grown out of cow crap. . .that is just as weird.

                                                              My milk isn't lasting forever, darn it! It was supposed to expire on the 4th and it expire 3 days ago! WTH?! And that is with any milk of any brand!

                                                              Here's something that lasts a long time: lactose-intolerant milk and soy milk. That is disturbing.

                                                              "Am told that goats milk is closest to human, don't really know." That may be true. When it comes to allergies, more people are allergic to cow's milk than goat's milk.

                                                                #15.3 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 9:42 AM EDT
                                                                Division by Zero

                                                                How quickly your milk expires largely depends on where you keep it in your fridge. If you keep it on the door or near the front of the fridge it will expire more quickly because the temperature stays several degrees warmer there. If you keep your milk at the very back of the fridge it will usually stay fresh past the expiration date because the temperature is very cool and stable at the back of the fridge. I only use milk for cooking but have found that when I keep it at the back of the fridge I can always get an extra week of freshness, sometimes more.

                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                #15.4 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 10:48 AM EDT
                                                                Checkmate-983933

                                                                Mine is always in the back. Never put it on the door for fear that it will expire faster.

                                                                  #15.5 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 11:17 AM EDT
                                                                  Reply
                                                                  Gary Locke

                                                                  weRdoomed...... now you have done it.... I guess I will not be hearing "snap, crackle, pop" anymore. I don't know, something about dry rice crispies, ick! What about 2%?

                                                                    Reply#16 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 8:36 PM EDT
                                                                    kaviaq

                                                                    soy milk, rice milk, almond milk, oat milk, hemp milk, etc. "snap, crackle, and pop" away!

                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                    #16.1 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 9:08 PM EDT
                                                                    Gary Locke

                                                                    Hemp milk? Won't that give me the munchies? Might have to change over to Fruit Loops! LOL!

                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                    #16.2 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 10:33 PM EDT
                                                                    weRdoomed

                                                                    Well, Gary, like everything in life it's - enjoy at your own risk!! =P

                                                                      #16.3 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 8:58 AM EDT
                                                                      Reply
                                                                      kaviaq

                                                                      Milk is pretty gross. Humans should be weaned by two years-old. I've never felt better than I have since I gave up all dairy (became vegan). I've been vegetarian before but always ate dairy. HUGE difference in how I feel!

                                                                      • 2 votes
                                                                      Reply#17 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 9:10 PM EDT
                                                                      Division by Zero

                                                                      I have a friend who drinks a glass of milk every night before bedtime. I just shake my head.

                                                                      One interesting piece of information that I stumbled across probably about 6-8 months ago was the fact that those countries that have the highest percentage of milk consumption have the highest percentage of osteoporosis. Those countries that have the lowest percentage of milk consumption have the lowest percentage of osteoporosis. Adult humans were not meant to consume milk. It's only a genetic mutation that allows some of us to do so without the symptoms of lactose intolerance. Most people of Asian, African, and southern European ancestry cannot digest milk in adulthood.

                                                                      • 2 votes
                                                                      Reply#18 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 9:12 PM EDT
                                                                      Checkmate-983933

                                                                      My question is what else are they eating other than dairy?

                                                                        #18.1 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 9:49 AM EDT
                                                                        Division by Zero

                                                                        In most countries where adults do not drink milk they do eat yogurt and consume hard cheeses. With both yogurt and hard cheese the lactose has already been predigested by bacteria so there are no lactose intolerance problems. It's not that they don't consume dairy, it's that they don't consume milk or soft cheeses. Milk is not the "perfect food" for adults despite what the dairy board would have us believe.

                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                        #18.2 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 12:37 PM EDT
                                                                        OomYaaqub

                                                                        The people of the far East don't traditionally consume dairy in ANY form even when they keep water buffalo and other cattle for plowing.

                                                                          #18.3 - Sat Jul 3, 2010 1:53 AM EDT
                                                                          Reply
                                                                          Ann Nonimus

                                                                          Interesting read. Never liked milk mostly due to my father's influence. He would tell me, "If people were intended to drink milk they would have 4 chambers in their stomach to digest it...like cows do." Sure miss that man.

                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                          Reply#19 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 10:34 PM EDT
                                                                          Gary Locke

                                                                          soy milk, rice milk, almond milk, oat milk, hemp milk, etc<------------that ain't milk

                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                          Reply#20 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 10:41 PM EDT
                                                                          Checkmate-983933

                                                                          Reminds me of Bill Engvall.

                                                                          "My wife, trying to be helpful, goes to the grocery store and buys this stuff called soy bacon. Let me tell you something: I know soy beans are good for a lot of things. Let's stay out of the bacon market! It says "It looks and tastes like real bacon!" No it doesn't! It tastes like somebody bacon-flavored a turd, that's what it tastes like!"

                                                                            #20.1 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 9:50 AM EDT
                                                                            Reply
                                                                            CaptainKidd

                                                                            soy milk, rice milk, almond milk, oat milk, hemp milk, etc

                                                                            You are right. It aint milk.

                                                                            soy milk juice, rice milk juice, almond milk juice, oat milk juice, hemp milk juice

                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                            Reply#21 - Thu Jul 1, 2010 10:47 PM EDT
                                                                            OomYaaqub

                                                                            It aint milk, but it can be delicious, and it serves the same function in most recipes.

                                                                              #21.1 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 3:14 AM EDT
                                                                              Checkmate-983933

                                                                              To quote Lewis Black:

                                                                              "There's no such thing as soy milk. It's soy juice. But they couldn't sell soy juice, so they called it soy milk. Because anytime you say soy juice, you actually start to gag. We all know there's no soy milk? Because there's no soy titty, is there?"

                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                              #21.2 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 9:53 AM EDT
                                                                              Reply
                                                                              Finding Balance

                                                                              I just wanted to go on record and say that I LOVE milk!!! Always have and thankfully I have no to little problems consuming dairy. I love, love, love cheese. And ice cream is one of the best things ever! Not a fan of yogurt tho *bleh*

                                                                              Even if it isn't the best thing for you, I'll prolly continue to drink it.

                                                                              • 2 votes
                                                                              Reply#22 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 10:35 AM EDT
                                                                              weRdoomed

                                                                              Nothing I like more than informed resolve!!

                                                                                #22.1 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 10:37 AM EDT
                                                                                Reply
                                                                                Joshua Deacon

                                                                                Ice Cream on a hot summer day. Enough said.

                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                Reply#23 - Fri Jul 2, 2010 11:10 AM EDT
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